re: A Featured RB

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I respect payton, but god dammit his stubbornness is fricking annoying

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I think this is something we all agree on.

You agreed with:

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I'd like to see Ingram with 12-15 carries, Robinson with 8-10, and PT with 5 or so. I think that is a reasonable breakdown and keeps all healthy should this team make a playoff run.

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Spelling would be 2-3 carries (10% of the offensive snaps; pass protection, run blocking, and passing game), like what Randle does for Murray.

Giving him 8-10 carries and Ingram with 12-15 carries is splitting the workload, not spelling.

Now if you're saying out of say 75 snaps, Ingram gets 45, PT gets 20 and Khiry gets 10. Sure

By saying the above, that you agreed to posted by Geauxgurt, you're saying:

Ingram gets 25-30 snaps (roughly 1:1 ratio in R:P), PT gets 20-25 snaps (roughly 1:3 ratio in R:P), and Khiry gets 20-25 (roughly 3:2 ratio in R:P). Which we were doing in Game 1 and 2.

How did that work out for us?

And both losses, the hot handed RB only played 1/3 of the snaps.

The 3 wins this year:
Minnesota: Split evenly between 2 RBs - Won, but not in our usually home-manner
Tampa Bay: Split evenly between 2 RBs - Barely won
Green Bay: One RB got close to 80% of the snaps - Won decisively

our offense hasn't moved that cleanly all year until Green Bay.

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htran90

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Those 3 games are not directly comparable, as is the case with so many situations.

First off, they won by 11 over Minnesota. Any double digit win in the NFL is nice, especially for a team dealing with shockingly starting 0-2 on the season.

Drew threw 3 INT's in the TB game. That kind of had something to do with a less than blowout victory.

The GB game was a primetime game where the team always rises well above there normal play. They were also facing a team that was on the road playing their 8th straight week with the Saints having just gotten a break in week 6. The Saints also had a different center (Lelito) and a different fullback (Lorig) playing. The offensive line did a better job of protecting Drew and Drew's arm looked good throwing the deep passes. If Drew would have underthrown those deep balls to Stills and Cooks, resulting in INT's, the Saints could have ended up losing, or at least winning less convincingly.

And Khiry Robinson was the lead back vs. 2 weak run defenses as well (TB is ranked 23rd - 123.9ypg; 4.11ypc, Minnesota is ranked 17th - 111.6ypg; 4.23ypc).

Yet he didn't rush for more than their defenses allow on the season (21-89 yards 4.2ypc vs. TB; 18-69 yards 3.8ypc vs. Minnesota) nor did he rush for exponentially more than their ypc allowed.

If you take away our games from their schedule, their defense gets worse. If you take away Ingram's game from GB's schedule, their defense gets better.

They may not be comparable in the type of game because one is SNF and the others are just two home games, but this isn't something I want to see:

vs. Minnesota
11 yards
13 yards
2 yards
0 yards
5 yards
7 yards
-6 yards
4 yards
3 yards
3 yards
0 yards
6 yards
5 yards
10 yards
1 yard
-2 yards
2 yards
5 yards

vs. TB
-1 yard
4 yards
7 yards
11 yards
1 yard
-1 yard
-2 yards
4 yards
-3 yards
0 yards
5 yards
8 yards
0 yard
3 yards
12 yards
7 yards
3 yards
5 yards
6 yards
2 yards
18 yards (TD)

In 39 rushes:
0 or loss: 10 carries, -15 yards
1-5: 17 carries, 57 yards
6-9: 6 carries, 41 yards
>10: 6 carries, 75 yards 1 TD
39 carries, 158 yards, 4.05ypc, 1TD
Combined, the defenses give up:
235.5 yards, 4.17ypc

More rested is a joke, we were at home vs. TB and Minnesota who have a combined 4 wins. If we got more rest because it was SNF, GB defense got more rest as well. That is the only difference. GB didn't just so happen to get the same amount of rest as Minny/TB

Wait..what?

vs. Atlanta:
13 carries, 60 yards, 2 TDs 4.6ypc
6 carries, 28 yards, 1 TD 4.7ypc

vs. Cleveland:
11 carries, 83 yards, 1 TD 7.5ypc
8 carries, 31 yards, 3.9ypc

vs. Detroit:
10 carries, 16 yards 1.6ypc
3 carries, 26 yards, 1 FumL 8.7ypc

You guys refuse to accept the fact that YPC is not the best indicator of the better game for a RB.

Randle > Murray in YPC because he doesn't carry it as often, most of the time more carries = lower YPC, and you guys blatantly ignore the fact that Khiry fumbled it vs. Detroit leading to 3pts for detroit. That already costs him whatever advantage he had over Ingram because he costed us possession and they scored 3pts off the turnover.

Under similar scenarios, Robinson underperformed against porous run defenses (i.e. TB and Minnesota). He should have been FRESH since he only carried it 14 times in 2 games before Minnesota, right?

Since you want to use "Fresh" as an argument, he went 18 rushes for 69 yards (3.8ypc).

Minnesota was tired from 2 previous games where they were hit for:
11 rushes 43 yards (3.9ypc) - Zac Stacy
25 rushes 101 yards 1TD (4.04ypc) - Stevan Ridley

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You seriously need to go back and read because I in no way blatantly ignored that Khiry fumbled it. When it was mentioned, I said "Yes, he did" and then questioned about the other comparable aspects of the RB's in that game, which, ironically, was blatantly ignored.

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I'm not ignoring the fact he didn't produce numbers on 10 carries. It isn't a good game.

1st drive:
1. 2 yards -> 3rd and 5 -> DET penalty (1st down) -> ended up punting 10 plays later.

2nd drive:
2. -3 yards -> 3 and out; DET ends up punting as well

3rd drive:
3. 5 yard -> 2nd and 5 -> NO penalty -> 3 and out

4th drive:
4. -4 yards -> 2nd and 14 -> Kenny Stills 1st down
5. continuing drive: 1 yard gain; DET penalty -> 1st down
6. continuing drive: -3 yards -> 3rd and 4 -> Marques Colston 1st down -> FG

5th drive:
7. 14 yards -> 1st down; NO penalty FS 1st and 15
8. continuing drive: 0 yards -> 2nd and 15 -> FG

6th drive:
9. 3 yards -> +DET penalty -> 1st down
10. 1 yard -> 2nd & 9 -> Drew Brees INT

In those 10 rushes, he lost yards 3 times, got stuffed for 0 once, and the rest were minimal gains with one big one. None of those runs gave them points. His 1st drive, 10 plays after his 2 yard gain we punted. Khiry had a 5 yard run in one of those 10 plays. The other 9 were all passes.
1st drive: 1 run, he was rotated out and 10 plays later punt
2nd drive: his fault, made it long, punt
3rd drive: he gained 5 yards, we got a holding penalty (10 yards) so that was stupid
4th drive: we ended up with a FG
5th drive: we ended up with a FG
6th drive: Drew Brees throws an INT

So in the 6 drives he participated in, his loss of yards caused us to get a 3&out, once. Defense held 0 points after that punt as well.

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Since you think the Minnesota run defense was tired after just the first two games of the season, then how do you think Green Bay's defense felt after seven games while then having to play an entire offense that just had a full week's rest just two weeks prior? There was no rest differential between the Saints offensive lines and their opponents' defensive lines for weeks 2 & 3.

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Point and case of "tired" and how useless of an argument it is.
Dallas + Murray: 8 games, 208 carries on the year
Washington Defense: 8 games, 15th ranked (111.1ypg; 4.15ypc)
Murray's statline: 19 rushes 141 yards 7.4ypc

Both teams were tired and Murray has 200+ carries of tread on the season. yet he had his highest YPC on a pretty stingy run defense. There was no rest for any team, but yet he was able to do that.

The point is, the best RB on both Cowboys' and Saints' team did their job AND more vs. teams they should have dominated on the ground. Not the same can be said with Robinson.

Robinson = 2 games
Minnesota = 2 games
"meh" numbers in regards to YPC and total yardage their defense allows.

Murray = 8 games
Washington = 8 games
Higher YPC and YPG numbers than their defense allowed.

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Ultimately, I don't really much care how the Saints have to get the job done as my Saints fandom is greater than my desire to win an Internet argument. If that means Ingram has to end up being a true feature back, then so be it. However, at this point in time, I don't think it is necessary to ignore the talents of Khiry and Pierre as they have each shown in times past that they can get the job done and until that is proven patently false in terms of this team going forward, there is no reason not to work them into gameplans.

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No one is ignoring their talents. They are good players, but there's no point to force the hot hand to sit down to "rest him" or split the snaps 1/3 each like we did in weeks 1 and 2 because the others are talented.

Randle is just as talented of a RB as PT/Khiry is to Ingram, but you don't see Dallas ceding so many carries/snaps to him to keep Murray fresh. They give Murray a breather here or there, but he still maintains a 10:1 ratio to Joseph in snaps/runs/passes. With the way you guys were talking about distribution, it ends up becoming something like 30 snaps-20 snaps-20 snaps, which is what we did in games 1 and 2 and it just isn't working on the road.

We don't even have a single RB that has hit 70 carries, so wear and tear is not going to be an issue. The hot hand is also only 24 years old, he's fresh enough.

Anyways, we're not going to use a feature back system with Sean Payton.

I just don't like the idea of saving a talented player with the way injuries occur in the NFL.

He could break his hand, tear his ACL, etc. on any play, so you use him up and address wear and tear or injuries as they come up.

We've lost Ingram, PT, and Robinson for time this year, so no point in saving them up.

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If you give Ingram 20-25 carries a game the rest of the way, that's roughly 200 more carries. Add in another 20-25 for the first round playoff game and he is a RB with 225 carries over the past 10 weeks trying to carry the full load on the road against a playoff team with a full week's rest under their belt - maybe even two weeks off in the past eight weeks if it's a team with a late regular season bye like Dallas.

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We are 3-4. That kind of thinking would get a coach fired. You play to win the individual games.

Slim chance Ingram goes the rest of the season with missing a game due to injury anyways.

He did just fine with 200 carries in college. Adrian Peterson, Lynch, McCoy, Morris, etc. all handle that kind of workload.

He's in a contract year and probably not resigning. Run him until he breaks