re: This is why business owners/entrepreneurs do not like democrats very much

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and tax cuts for the rich sure as fricking hell dont create jobs

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Yup. I remember the huge tax on luxury yachts. Was to generate more revenue.
Yacht makers laid off workers and reduced building. They revoked the tax and workers and business increased dramatically.

So once again your interesting.

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and tax cuts for the rich sure as fricking hell dont create jobs

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So what you are saying is that the government, once they confiscate the money from the rich, are more efficient at using it than the rich people? Sorry dude but that is a pathetic soviet philosophy.

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“Don’t let anybody tell you it’s corporations and businesses create jobs,” Clinton said.

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It just amazes me how many educated people believe this.

It is the typical rhetoric of Dems that excuses lack of effort and responsibility.

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Zed, who denies that consumers are more important

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I would say republican politicians tend to overstate the importance of producers, while understating the importance of consumers. If one is cynical about their reasons for doing so, it's unflattering and irritating.

Here's another angle to the debate, zed. Consumer surplus. It doesn't show up in GDP or any measurement like that, but it is the single most important aspect that will tell you how productive, efficient, and vibrant a market is.

In case you don't know what it is, consumer surplus is the difference between the amount I value a good, and the amount I actually pay for it. The keyboard I am typing on right now I would probably value at 45 dollars, yet I bought it for 30 bucks. That is a consumer surplus of 15.

Note that this number doesn’t appear anywhere in GDP (nor GNP, NNI or any of the other variants) but it is this consumer surplus that makes us all by any historical, or even current global, standard so enormously, vastly, rich. For there is such a consumer surplus (of differing levels to be sure) on absolutely everything we purchase. There must be, by definition in fact. For we only purchase those things that provide us with greater value than they cost.

Who is it that provides us with this consumer surplus? In the end, it boils down to those entrepreneurs, the businessmen like Nick Hanauer. It is they that organise the companies into organizations that produce the things that are worth more to us than we must pay them. That produce that consumer surplus.

As it happens we know that we consumers get the majority of the gains in consumer surplus. Not just the majority in fact, the vast majority of the gains flow to us, the consumers.

And they don't even benefit from this consumer surplus. Here are the most recent stats from FORBES:

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We conclude that only a miniscule fraction of the social returns from
technological advances over the 1948-2001 period was captured by producers, indicating that
most of the benefits of technological change are passed on to consumers rather than captured
by producers.

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Using data from the U.S.
nonfarm business section, I estimate that innovators are able to capture
about 2.2 percent of the total social surplus from innovation.

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That is, of the new wealth created by people starting new companies to do new things, 2% or so of the wealth goes to the people doing the creating and 98% of it goes to the consumers in the form of that consumer surplus.

At which point we’ve got to wonder why anyone is thinking of taxing these entrepreneurs at all. Forget about the money they make, the jobs they do or do not create, these are irrelevant next to that important figure. We make 50 times more out of their work than they do.

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That is, of the new wealth created by people starting new companies to do new things, 2% or so of the wealth goes to the people doing the creating and 98% of it goes to the consumers in the form of that consumer surplus.

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Innovators are clearly indispensable. The beneficiaries of tax and regulation policies are largely massive existing corporations, many of whom haven't created anything new in years, not small startups that actually create new products. Too bad.

Businesses don't create jobs.

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Businesses don't create jobs.

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Not surprised to hear you say that.

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All successful producers are innovators in at least some small way.

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Not in the way that is being discussed here. Some, perhaps many, are but not all. There are a number of "producers" who will optimize a business for profit in absence of any real innovation or value passed onto the consumer.