- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
Is the "upper class" in America getting soft?
Posted on 9/30/14 at 12:59 pm
Posted on 9/30/14 at 12:59 pm
All the talk of the soft "corporate fans" in Tiger Stadium got me thinking of this concept in a more general way.
(For purposes of this discussion, let's define upper class as the top 5%, with income somewhere north of $150,000.00).
Seems like throughout a lot of history, the upper class (or the somewhat related concepts of Nobility and "Citizen" have carried a large portion of things like military service, exploration of difficult areas, etc.
Now, granted, this may be because in a lot of instances, the upper classes consisted largely of a conquering minority who had some self preservation reasons to keep war making out of the hands of the people they conquered.
But today, in America at least, it seems like the upper classes have largely abdicated military service to the middle and lower classes. Same with exploration of difficult fields like space and deep sea.
The officers may be drawn a little more from the upper classes but I'm not even sure if that is true anymore.
Any thoughts on whether my supposition is true and if so, what long term effect it will have?
(For purposes of this discussion, let's define upper class as the top 5%, with income somewhere north of $150,000.00).
Seems like throughout a lot of history, the upper class (or the somewhat related concepts of Nobility and "Citizen" have carried a large portion of things like military service, exploration of difficult areas, etc.
Now, granted, this may be because in a lot of instances, the upper classes consisted largely of a conquering minority who had some self preservation reasons to keep war making out of the hands of the people they conquered.
But today, in America at least, it seems like the upper classes have largely abdicated military service to the middle and lower classes. Same with exploration of difficult fields like space and deep sea.
The officers may be drawn a little more from the upper classes but I'm not even sure if that is true anymore.
Any thoughts on whether my supposition is true and if so, what long term effect it will have?
9
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:02 pm to Methuselah
Upper class in civil war would pay folks to fight in their place. Nothing has changed.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:04 pm to Methuselah
quote:
the upper classes have largely abdicated military service to the middle and lower classes
I believe this happened when military branches began the "pay for college" programs.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:06 pm to Methuselah
quote:
let's define upper class as the top 5%, with income somewhere north of $150,000.00
Seriously? Each member that posts on the OT made more than that this morning.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:09 pm to TigerFred
I don't consider my household upper class and we are north of that $150k
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:09 pm to Methuselah
quote:
upper class
quote:social and economic classes aren't defined by income imo, but i see what you're trying to say.
$150,000.00
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:10 pm to Shexter
I agree with that somewhat. My cousin in PA definitely grew up in a well off household and his parents are very proud that he's going to the Naval Academy in Annapolis like his grandfather did. A lot of well off families have military backgrounds to some degree and still do.
What I do notice is that the coastal interests are largely what drives this country's public policy, and military service does seem to be more of a white conservative or moderate "flyover state" trend....which I find interesting because I think the federal government and the ruling class largely fail and representing their best interests.
What I do notice is that the coastal interests are largely what drives this country's public policy, and military service does seem to be more of a white conservative or moderate "flyover state" trend....which I find interesting because I think the federal government and the ruling class largely fail and representing their best interests.
This post was edited on 9/30/14 at 1:24 pm
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:14 pm to Methuselah
All facets of American society are 'softer' than they were in yesteryear, and I don't think that it's some kind of problem with the 'collective' mindset. It's very easily attributable to the wonders of free markets making life easier and enjoyable than ever before.
Go back 150 years and probably 95% of the ancestors of posters here were practicing some kind of subsistence farming. Sure, it makes you 'hard', but work for the sake of work is absurd.
Go back 150 years and probably 95% of the ancestors of posters here were practicing some kind of subsistence farming. Sure, it makes you 'hard', but work for the sake of work is absurd.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:18 pm to Methuselah
This thing called the age of enlightenment happened and then this thing called democracy so now these pussies aren't allowed to buy military prestige and capabilities to use for personal glory & wealth
ETA: nb4Halliburton&MilitaryIndustrialComplex
ETA: nb4Halliburton&MilitaryIndustrialComplex
This post was edited on 9/30/14 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:22 pm to Spirit of Dunson
quote:
Upper class in civil war would pay folks to fight in their place. Nothing has changed.
This. Noblesse obliges sounds nice, but it's always been the exception. The 1% didn't get that way by being altruistic.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:25 pm to Swoopin
The military is still overwhelmingly comprised of the middle class (the middle three quintiles), just as it has always been in American history. The average recruit (taking both enlisted and officer) is around the 55th percentile in both income and education.
The top 5% and the bottom 25% generally eschew service but for very different reasons.
The top 5% and the bottom 25% generally eschew service but for very different reasons.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:31 pm to Methuselah
quote:
the upper class have carried a large portion of things like military service, exploration of difficult areas, etc
quote:
American Revolution:
The impoverished, the disenfranchised, and the “filth” (Washington’s words not ours), fought for and won all the lofty freedoms conceived of in town halls, alehouses, and eventually Philadelphia. That didn’t just happen at random, either. That’s exactly how America’s wealthier colonists planned it.
When the war became reality, there was a remarkable dearth of ardent patriots willing to stop a musket ball for “liberty.” Overwhelmingly, colonists of any means whatsoever paid drifters and vagabonds to take their place in the fight against the British. Or, if they had them available, a wealthy colonist might order a slave or servant to join the army. Is there anything nobler than risking the life of another for your ideals? Apparently not, since it wasn’t just the powdered wig wearers who bought the military service of the poor. Middle and lower-class colonists alike often pooled their monies together to hire a “down and outer” for three years’ service. When all else failed, colonies (especially the southern ones) released convicts and enrolled them in the army.
This post was edited on 9/30/14 at 1:34 pm
Posted on 9/30/14 at 5:08 pm to Shexter
It appears that, in practice at least, the upper classes have had ways to avoid military service for some time. At least in relatively modern times.
I guess I was thinking more back to the feudal types of armies where people like knights at least had to be able to afford their arms and armor. Or to places like Greece and Rome where it was those who qualified as citizens of the city/state/empire comprised the army. Though I'd guess that even back then they sometimes found a way to get others to do the military service.
For some reason I thought it was the english long bowmen that comprised the first substantial forces of "common folk". At least for the "English" . Although now that I think of it, the Saxons and other Germanic people I think had militias of non nobles.
Another non military example that I was thinking of was the kind of infamous English "public" schools. I think these were pretty rough.
I guess I was thinking more back to the feudal types of armies where people like knights at least had to be able to afford their arms and armor. Or to places like Greece and Rome where it was those who qualified as citizens of the city/state/empire comprised the army. Though I'd guess that even back then they sometimes found a way to get others to do the military service.
For some reason I thought it was the english long bowmen that comprised the first substantial forces of "common folk". At least for the "English" . Although now that I think of it, the Saxons and other Germanic people I think had militias of non nobles.
Another non military example that I was thinking of was the kind of infamous English "public" schools. I think these were pretty rough.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 5:35 pm to Methuselah
It's probably hard to become "upper class" (150k+) while in a military career, unless you are a high ranking officer.
Or were you referring to the children from uper class households?
I wouldn't mind if I had a child who wanted to graduate and go to OCS. I'd be pretty pissed if he/she wanted to be infantry.
ETA: also, most of our presidents have had military experience, and came from upper class families
Or were you referring to the children from uper class households?
I wouldn't mind if I had a child who wanted to graduate and go to OCS. I'd be pretty pissed if he/she wanted to be infantry.
ETA: also, most of our presidents have had military experience, and came from upper class families
This post was edited on 9/30/14 at 5:39 pm
Posted on 9/30/14 at 5:41 pm to Methuselah
Everybody in America has gotten soft.
The military really hasn't changed. It was middle/lower class that fought in Vietnam for the most part. I'm not sure there were that many "upper class" around at the start of WWII, that was the depression.
Rich folks have been doing this. See SpaceX, Richard Branson, James Cameron, etc. Nothing changed here.
The military really hasn't changed. It was middle/lower class that fought in Vietnam for the most part. I'm not sure there were that many "upper class" around at the start of WWII, that was the depression.
quote:
difficult fields like space and deep sea.
Rich folks have been doing this. See SpaceX, Richard Branson, James Cameron, etc. Nothing changed here.
Page 1 of 1
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News