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The Electoral Battleground--2016 and Beyond

Posted on 7/16/14 at 1:11 pm
Posted by Navytiger74
Member since Oct 2009
50458 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 1:11 pm
So this talk of Elizabeth Warren being considered a serious contender got thinking about the viability of another real liberal winning a national election. Obama's election, to me, shouldn't have been considered as earth-shaking as it was given the unpopularity of the Bush admin after its second term. His re-election, likewise, wasn't so surprising. His margin in the EC, however, was.

So I brought up the old count to 270 map ( Map) and started tinkering with 2016 possibilities.

BLUF: The Republican party, as it stands, does not seem very strongly positioned for Presidential elections in the near-term. President HW Bush's election in 1988 (28 years gone by the 2016 election) was commanding, with wins in states that are no longer competitive. Since then, the GOP's only successful candidate, President GW Bush, topped out at 285 EVs--literally a one or two state margin in any number of given scenarios. Clinton and Obama won with 370, 379, 365, and 332 for '92, '96, '08, and '12 respectively. Popular votes aside, that seems to imply that democrats enjoy a much more favorable playing field in the EC.

Back to the map. Starting with Obama's performance in 2012 (332 to Romney's 206), I gave a notional GOP candidate every single state I reasonably could--including every state that the GOP has captured at least once since 1988. Using this "perfect" scenario, I'm able to get the GOP candidate up to 296. This leaves the Dems with CA, WA, OR, MI, MN, WI, IL, PA, MD, DC, DE, NJ, NY, and the New England states minus NH. I consider all those save Penn pretty hard wired, with the possible caveat that homecourt advantage could affect some (NJ or WI in the next election, for instance). Excluding homestate candidate disruptions, those states get an average dem candidate within 28 of a victory without breaking a sweat.

To add to that, demographically most of the battlegrounds are trending blue--including VA, FL, NM, NV, and CO (all of which Obama won, but which I gave the notional GOP candidate). Arguments can be made that NC, AZ, and (at the outside) GA are within 2-3 cycles of being real toss-ups.

I know some guys here (like NH and NC) probably still have contact with some movers and shakers within the GOP who may have some interesting insights.

What's everyone's take (aside from throwing up our hands and saying frick this country I'm leaving)? Is a hard run at Hispanics the right play to make--even if it means some unpalatable decisions WRT immigration? New stands on drug laws and certain other social issues? A different approach to packaging the economic message while avoiding language or implications that could turn off single women, Hispanics and other minorities, the working poor, and younger people in general?

How much can the GOP open the tent without losing the voters it already has? How much can they do so and still call themselves Republicans?

Interested in ideas. As I said, this isn't "GOP will never win again" bullshite. It's a recognition that the party seems to be playing with a much smaller margin of error that will make every election a walk along the tightrope unless something shifts in the way the electorate votes.
This post was edited on 7/16/14 at 1:29 pm
Posted by CptBengal
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
71661 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 1:13 pm to
if they get away from nominating Dem light candidates they have a shot.

Someone like Rand whose policy ideas on the war on drugs, foreign wars, incarceration of minorities, etc. would play very well with many disillusioned dem voters and a lot of the conservatives as well.

the dynamic needs to shift from L v R to statists v freedom
Posted by Tiguar
Montana
Member since Mar 2012
33131 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 1:17 pm to
good questions, difficult questions.

I think you've outlined the current issue between "new republicans" and the establishment with

quote:

How much can the GOP open the tent without losing the voters it already has? How much can they do so and still call themselves Republicans?


it is also indicative of a potentially serious shift in demographics/ideology, with the population centers having a huge sway on national elections. they always have, but it does seem to be growing.

I can't really contribute to the discussion other than I think the "rand paul" vision is the only way to keep up and maintain small-town america. It is just a really hard sell right now with being labeled as an R.

I almost would bet money if Rand maintained his core philosophies and was a D, he would win handily.

This post was edited on 7/16/14 at 1:18 pm
Posted by wfeliciana
Member since Oct 2013
4504 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 1:21 pm to
quote:

BLUF


Your military is showing...
Posted by RCDfan1950
United States
Member since Feb 2007
34868 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 1:24 pm to
The really big changes that happen in polarized scenarios re First Principles of societal governance in this World are seldom the result of 'votes', NT.

It'll be events that determine our future 'government'...and not votes. Especially given that a very large segment of the electorate couldn't tell you the three branches of government.
Posted by Sentrius
Fort Rozz
Member since Jun 2011
64757 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

Someone like Rand whose policy ideas on the war on drugs, foreign wars, incarceration of minorities, etc. would play very well with many disillusioned dem voters and a lot of the conservatives as well.

the dynamic needs to shift from L v R to statists v freedom


This.

Rand has access to groups that the typical republican doesn't have the luxury of being friendly with in a credible manner. And I don't see warren or Hilary doing the same thing Rand does.

He's the GOP's best shot. He's a legit conservative, solid statesman and virtually none of the demagoguery of Ted Cruz who I like very much btw but can see how people would be turned off of.
Posted by deltaland
Member since Mar 2011
90499 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 3:05 pm to
It's not a result of demographic change because do far any increase in minorities has also resulted in white people fleeing the Dem party. A lot if R voters stayed home in recent elections because the party is no longer the party of Reagan, who was who made the GOP popular again after Nixon ruined it. Demographics didn't change much from 88 to 92 or 96. The GOP ran shitty candidates, just like in 08 and 12. Bush 2 was even that good a candidate but was good enough to win.

Conservative voters are more skeptical of candidates than liberal ones. It takes a quality candidate to get the R voters to turn out, and we haven't had one in awhile
Posted by ehidal1
Chief Boot Knocka
Member since Dec 2007
37133 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 3:09 pm to
quote:

The dynamic needs to shift from L v R to statists v freedom

Well said

I also think that human complacency and the feeling of always having to progress always shifts the pendulum the other direction. For decades much of Europe swung from communism to statism (closer to freedom), while we started free and are moving closer to statism.

As many would not like to admit, power corrupts and the ones with the most money will always want the power and control. This is why the slippery slope arguments are always valid, no matter how 'common sense' they sound at the time.
This post was edited on 7/16/14 at 3:13 pm
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 3:17 pm to
quote:

if they get away from nominating Dem light candidates they have a shot.

presidential contests are very much not about candidates. While a weak candidate can screw you, chances are the party that is going to win will win due to ground game or structural changes. Every once in a while you get a transformation candidate (JFK, Reagan) that can change the playing field. I just wish Rand Paul had more charisma, as he could be that candidate.

to OP, good analysis. I think the democrats are at a structural advantage due to hispanics, woman, blacks and really anything but whites over 40.

if I was the republican party, this is what I would do
* drop all discussions of abortions and gays post 2014 election. just don't discuss it at a national level
* hammer on the economy non stop. Actually have congress pass a few things this time around, get an Obama veto.
* Pass immigration reform on the hope that they can claim some credit. Do it in a way obama reluctantly signs it.
* Assume you are going after hillary and bloodbath her starting now. Non stop HRC sucks.
Posted by a want
I love everybody
Member since Oct 2010
19756 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 3:21 pm to
I don't think the country is ready for a big-time Massachusetts liberal like Warren. I know some here suggest Obama is a mega-liberal, but it just isn't true.

GOP is in trouble in national elections but they're positioned pretty nicely for state and local races. I think there are almost 30 republican governors. They have a real problem in that the religious right/social conservative wing turn off moderates and independents in a big way. That' not going away. Remember: The Evangelical vote is how Rove got W elected. Republicans are now unfortunately reaping what they sowed.

FWIW: I think (with 24 hour news media and info-tainment) every president for the foreseeable future will be "The worst ever". Short of WW3, I don't see us going back to a more reasonable/bipartisan time.

--eta--
As for minorities and women : If the GOP could better articulate their message of personal responsibility, it could make a difference. The problem is: for every Rand Paul who actually GOES to historically black colleges and tries to get the message across, you have 3 idiots like Mo Brooks (my congressman) who says things like "I'll do anything short of shooting them to stop illegal immigration". They need to be called out by the GOP leadership when this stuff happens.
This post was edited on 7/16/14 at 3:38 pm
Posted by GeorgeWest
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2013
13064 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 3:25 pm to
Rand Paul has major problems with two key GOP constituancies: Religious Right and the NeoCons. He will not be nominated by the GOP.
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 3:30 pm to
quote:

He's the GOP's best shot. He's a legit conservative, solid statesman and virtually none of the demagoguery of Ted Cruz who I like very much btw but can see how people would be turned off of.

Rand Paul has the potential to completely change the election dynamics. BUT, he has to get through the primaries and you have to realize core GOP constutencies will support HRC over Paul. Neocons, hawks in general, law and order types and even some social conservatives.
Posted by real
Dixieland
Member since Oct 2007
14027 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 3:33 pm to
Well I'm hoping the young voters will wake up and realize that a President such as Obama is destroying their work opportunities. They better stop voting on social issues and vote with their wallets are their lives are going to be a struggle. Us guys 40 and over all ready have our 100 grand a yr jobs. But I don't see you guys 30 and under having that chance. Even those with degrees are having hard times finding jobs in their field. Jobs should be every persons #1 choice. frick abortion isn't changing,gays can marry, smoke dope if u like, but we all only live once and if your in a dead end job,you better vote for someone who will be business friendly.if something doesn't change a lot of young people are going to struggle ,having to work in dead end jobs their entire lives. But it's their choice. It's all about jobs!
This post was edited on 7/16/14 at 3:34 pm
Posted by Navytiger74
Member since Oct 2009
50458 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 3:47 pm to
quote:

if they get away from nominating Dem light candidates they have a shot.


This may be, but I'm not convinced that Romney or McCain's losses had anything with them not being authentically conservative enough.

Let's start with McCain (I don't even think you and I will argue over this one). McCain didn't lose because he was too centrist. He lost because he was a Republican running after a Republican presidency (well really, second term) that was viewed incredibly unfavorably across a broad swath of the electorate. Obama's campaign was well run and he was transformational to some, but I'd argue that the result was a fait accompli--especially when the economy really tanked in the late fall. I can envision scenarios in which a certain kind of GOP candidate would have lost much worse than McCain (who was in no way close to Bush) and certain scenarios in which a Bill Clinton-style candidate could have picked up everything Obama did plus Georgia and maybe even another southern state.

Romney lost because his ground game wasn't what it needed to be in battleground states. I mean, he lost them all except NC, which I don't think was ever really in play. You can again claim it was an enthusiasm gap, but increased enthusiasm for a certain block of conservatives would simply result in numbers being run up in the south and mid-West. It wouldn't necessarily move the map.

You can plausibly argue that HW Bush faced a rebellion from conservatives and that Bob Dole was really too "meh" to matter much. I think Perot played a significant factor, however.
Posted by CptBengal
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
71661 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 3:53 pm to
quote:

McCain didn't lose because he was too centrist. He lost because he was a Republican running after a Republican presidency


That and he's a big government piece of shite. The people were tired of the big government W administration. Obama talked a good game...and we got the even bigger government administration.

All but the most vocal of the wackjob progs are against an all powerful state because they know the pendulum can easily swing against them.

quote:

Romney lost because his ground game wasn't what it needed to be in battleground states. I mean, he lost them all except NC, which I don't think was ever really in play. You can again claim it was an enthusiasm gap, but increased enthusiasm for a certain block of conservatives would simply result in numbers being run up in the south and mid-West. It wouldn't necessarily move the map.


Romney lost because he is Obama light.
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 3:57 pm to
quote:

Romney lost because he is Obama light.


no, really it was at least in large part to the ground game. his ground game might have sucked b.c there wasn't much enthusiasm. But Obama got people to vote.

I am a registered independent, and live in a swing state. I had at least 10 check ins from team obama on whether i had voted or not. I got a couple door knocks from Romney early in the campaign but nothing on election day, and nothing on how to vote, where to vote, when, etc. Team obama did all of that.

What is strange is I told them I wasn't going to vote for obama.
Posted by CptBengal
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
71661 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 3:58 pm to
quote:

no, really it was at least in large part to the ground game. his ground game might have sucked b.c there wasn't much enthusiasm. But Obama got people to vote.


not really, even Obozo enthusiasm was down. Go look at the numbers.

quote:

I am a registered independent




quote:

Team obama did all of that.

What is strange is I told them I wasn't going to vote for obama.


based on your posts here, they knew exactly who the frick you are...
Posted by NHTIGER
Central New Hampshire
Member since Nov 2003
16188 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 4:17 pm to
When one looks at the 332-206 EV landslide win by Obama in 2012, it looks pretty bleak.

But when one realizes that just 396,807 votes, spread across 5 states, kept Romney out of the White House, the mountain becomes a hill.

396,807 votes in a country of 317,000,000 ...



92,855,000 ELIGIBLE voters did not cast a ballot for President in 2012.


92,855,000 - THAT'S where the 2016 electoral battleground is.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69251 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 4:23 pm to
quote:

NHTIGER
THREAD HIJACK:

NH, why is New Hampshire so much less democratic than the rest of New England?
Posted by Navytiger74
Member since Oct 2009
50458 posts
Posted on 7/16/14 at 4:32 pm to
quote:

When one looks at the 332-206 EV landslide win by Obama in 2012, it looks pretty bleak. But when one realizes that just 396,807 votes, spread across 5 states, kept Romney out of the White House, the mountain becomes a hill. 396,807 votes in a country of 317,000,000 ... 92,855,000 ELIGIBLE voters did not cast a ballot for President in 2012. 92,855,000 - THAT'S where the 2016 electoral battleground is.


I think given the fact that 40% of eligible voters stay home during a good cycle, there is always a way to expand the battlefield. Good point. I do tend to bias any increase in turnout and enthusiasm toward those corners of society where it tends to be lowest--young people, minorities, etc. I have no doubt that the GOP can make better inroads with young professionals, upwardly mobile minorities, religious Hispanics, etc., but I don't think they can count on a spike in enthusiasm among the current base getting the job done. As I said, there's a good chance that many of those voters would just run up the score in non-battleground states (on both sides), or that a spike in voting in battlegrounds will favor demos that aren't traditionally Republican. I'll look into turnout in the BGs for 2012. I know Colorado's was 70% or better.
This post was edited on 7/16/14 at 4:34 pm
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