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Mark Deeks on "Superstar Loyalty"

Posted on 6/21/14 at 9:33 am
Posted by corndeaux
Member since Sep 2009
9634 posts
Posted on 6/21/14 at 9:33 am
Great read on the hysteria over Melo to Miami.

quote:

It must constantly be remembered that this whole discussion is being revisited by the idea of Carmelo leaving the New York Knicks. NEW YORK. There is not a bigger market to be in, and yet he might still leave it. He would leave it for less money, less glitz, a less desirable city than the one he essentially hand-picked for himself three years ago. Melo has the opportunity to take much more money to be a star, THE star, in the biggest market available. If he would rather take less to be a sidekick, maybe he just wants that more than any rule change could prohibit.


quote:

Loyalty to the team that drafted you is apparently a thing. We romanticize the idea of the one franchise player, especially as it becomes less and less common in the modern NBA. Even Paul Pierce eventually got traded, so rare is the concept now. However, it is a concept born out of a strange idea of loyalty that emanates from a choice the players do not have. They are chided if not loyal to staying somewhere they never chose to go to in the first place.


quote:

That something, evidently, is winning. That is how you keep players, and the best means teams have against protecting themselves from the risk of these players losing is to do enough to give them reason not to leave. Teams should not be 'rewarded' for the 'development' of these players any more than they already do by having them as players for four price-fixed seasons. If they need any further protection, they already have it by way of the restricted free agency after the expiration of their rookie scale deals, and the ability to negotiate an extension prior to that.

If they do all that and still blow it, what more loyalty can be demanded of the player? At what point can a team said to have burned out their loyalty to a player? At what point can the player say, 'you had your chance, sorry, but I need to win while I still can' without being morally tarnished?


LINK

Very worthwhile read and something to think about as the Pelicans look to make moves this summer. The clock is ticking for Davis.
Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
61489 posts
Posted on 6/21/14 at 10:56 am to
quote:

If he would rather take less to be a sidekick, maybe he just wants that more than any rule change could prohibit.


I'm calling bullshite on this until I see it. All indications are he wants to have his cake and eat it too. He's definitely not joining a Big 4, the paycuts are too much. I could see him joining a Big 3 in Houston if he doesn't believe Phil can make him an instant contender in 2015.

quote:

If they do all that and still blow it, what more loyalty can be demanded of the player? At what point can a team said to have burned out their loyalty to a player? At what point can the player say, 'you had your chance, sorry, but I need to win while I still can' without being morally tarnished?


I completely agree. I don't blame Chris Paul for leaving and I won't blame Kevin Durant. But how you leave does matter. Dwight and LeBron showed how not to do it.
Posted by PrimeTime Money
Houston, Texas, USA
Member since Nov 2012
27305 posts
Posted on 6/21/14 at 1:18 pm to
Miami a less desirable city than New York? I'd much rather be in Miami than NYC...
Posted by PrimeTime Money
Houston, Texas, USA
Member since Nov 2012
27305 posts
Posted on 6/21/14 at 1:20 pm to
I blame the media for blowing up the hysteria with LeBron and Dwight.
Posted by jacks40
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2007
11877 posts
Posted on 6/21/14 at 2:32 pm to
quote:

However, it is a concept born out of a strange idea of loyalty that emanates from a choice the players do not have. They are chided if not loyal to staying somewhere they never chose to go to in the first place.


Valid point
Posted by corndeaux
Member since Sep 2009
9634 posts
Posted on 6/21/14 at 5:12 pm to
quote:

I'm calling bullshite on this until I see it


Well of course. That's his point. If Melo takes a severe paycut and makes sacrifices in his game to be on a winner, that doesn't mean there is something wrong with the CBA or competitive balance or whatever.

I really liked his line about people complaining about super teams while glorifying the super teams of yesteryear.

quote:

LeBron showed how not to do it.


The Decision, even with them donating money to charity, was a massive mistake. Everything else he did was fine by me though.

quote:

PrimeTime


quote:

Miami a less desirable city than New York? I'd much rather be in Miami than NYC...


Each his own. But he's talking big market v small market here. If Melo is leaving the biggest market in the country to take a paycut, that is something worth noting.
Posted by Diddles
LA
Member since Apr 2013
6981 posts
Posted on 6/21/14 at 11:18 pm to
I hate Miami. Lebron prob can't wait to get out.
Posted by brmark70816
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
9783 posts
Posted on 6/22/14 at 6:24 am to
quote:

If Melo takes a severe paycut and makes sacrifices in his game to be on a winner, that doesn't mean there is something wrong with the CBA or competitive balance or whatever.


It does weaken the players bargaining stance and the union has to know that. They can't keep fighting for more money and bigger contracts, when all the stars take less than max money.

Plus it hurts the sport. The owners want balance and parity, like the NFL. You can't do that when all the stars keep going to the same teams. It gets great press during the offseason and playoffs, but it devalues the regular season.

quote:

I really liked his line about people complaining about super teams while glorifying the super teams of yesteryear.


The super teams of the past made more sense, cause there were so many fewer teams. I think there were 8 during the Celtics runs. There are 30 now. Talent has to be evened out.
Posted by corndeaux
Member since Sep 2009
9634 posts
Posted on 6/22/14 at 7:25 am to
quote:

It does weaken the players bargaining stance


How so? The owners are never, ever, ever giving up a % of the BRI split regardless of what the players do. In fact, it wouldn't be a shock if they pushed to lower the players' cut in the next CBA deal.

To me, the is the players' ultimate way of showing power. If they won't take more $, they are fully exercising their own agency. The league becomes a place where the best organizations, not the ones with the most money or best location, are rewarded. To be sure, this isn't really happening now and probably won't ever happen for most guys. But for max guys hitting UFA in year 8 or 9, it makes some sense.

quote:

Plus it hurts the spor


In what ways? Ratings are up. League interest is up. I'll hit this later, but in many ways it's very similar to the make up of the league in the 80s.

quote:

The owners want balance and parity, like the NFL.


I vehemently oppose NFL parity in the NBA.

quote:

I think there were 8 during the Celtics runs.


In my mind, he was talking about the 80s. Just about every NBA fan will say the 80s was one of (if not the) best periods of basketball. The league was dominated by super teams in Boston, LA, Detroit, Philly (early 80s Sixers). If we look beyond the great playoff series, we find that 30 and 31 win teams made the playoffs (in 86 and 87 I think). Multiple sub 500 teams were making the playoffs every year. The West was fairly poor throughout most of the decade. And yet, the league was it's most popular. For me, NBA basketball is a sport that needs transcendent teams.
Posted by LosLobos111
Austere
Member since Feb 2011
45385 posts
Posted on 6/22/14 at 7:47 am to
Adding to your point:

The league has probably the most talent it's had in a very long time(and even more so after this draft).

Teams are getting smarter and the CBA is going to take it's toll on the NYK/BKN/Lakers of the world.

I personally don't believe the NFLs parity is all it's cracked up to be. The NFC has a solid degree of parity but the AFC has had the Pats/Steelers/Peyton teams in the super bowl a combined 11 times over the past 14/15 years.

Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
61489 posts
Posted on 6/22/14 at 9:36 am to
quote:

I vehemently oppose NFL parity in the NBA.


The NFL has parity because they have a hard cap and unguaranteed contracts, although most are effectively 3 year deals. It would take at least 3 more hard CBA fights to get there if they wanted to, but they don't want to because teams will not go away from cap loopholes they see as beneficial to them like Bird Rights.

I can see a continued shift towards weakening the players position (shorter guaranteed contracts), but the owners will never do anything that weakens their ability to keep their own star players.
Posted by corndeaux
Member since Sep 2009
9634 posts
Posted on 6/22/14 at 2:01 pm to
quote:

The NFL has parity because they have a hard cap and unguaranteed contracts


Yep. I'd also add the limited number of games creates a fairly random landscape plus the sheer number of players on the field at once and the specialist nature of the sport limit just how much impact one guy can have. And that's before we even get to talking about the revenue sharing system they have which does not and will not ever exist in the NBA.

To echo Lobos, I don't even really think parity explains the absurd popularity of the sport as much as it's scheduling, perfection as a tv product, and the martial nature of the sport itself.
Posted by VOR
Member since Apr 2009
63495 posts
Posted on 6/22/14 at 2:19 pm to
quote:

Yep. I'd also add the limited number of games creates a fairly random landscape plus the sheer number of players on the field at once and the specialist nature of the sport limit just how much impact one guy can have. And that's before we even get to talking about the revenue sharing system they have which does not and will not ever exist in the NBA.

To echo Lobos, I don't even really think parity explains the absurd popularity of the sport as much as it's scheduling, perfection as a tv product, and the martial nature of the sport itself.


All of that is true. But I'd be interested in hearing more on your objection to "parity" in the NBA. Maybe we should start with our definition of parity. I do like the idea of some equalizing factors that counteract sheer wealth of an owner or wealth/size of a market. Competition makes a league stronger and more interesting, imo.

Posted by NOLAbaby
CumTown
Member since Sep 2013
1758 posts
Posted on 6/22/14 at 2:44 pm to
Loyalty is overrated. Winning matters. Money matters. "Loyalty Matters" is a shameless piece some hack wrote to make himself feel better about LeBron leaving Cleveland. Get Over It Already
Posted by corndeaux
Member since Sep 2009
9634 posts
Posted on 6/22/14 at 3:36 pm to
Interesting word to parse.

Good parity is limiting outside factors such as market size, individual owner's wealth, local wealth to ensure everyone is starting from as close to equal ground as possible. Reward good management and creativity, not anything else.

Bad parity is creating rules to ensure every team is fielding a team of roughly the same quality- watering down. I don't want a league where each team has one "star" and then is surrounded by role players.

What do you think?
Posted by VOR
Member since Apr 2009
63495 posts
Posted on 6/22/14 at 4:23 pm to
quote:

Bad parity is creating rules to ensure every team is fielding a team of roughly the same quality- watering down


Agreed.

quote:

Good parity is limiting outside factors such as market size, individual owner's wealth, local wealth to ensure everyone is starting from as close to equal ground as possible. Reward good management and creativity, not anything else.


Absolutely. Stable, well organizations will produce the good teams. And the ones that will be or become fan favorites.

ETA: I think the big questions lay in how you achieve your goal. A soft cap makes it more difficult it seems to me. And I'm not a fan of the completely guaranteed contract, honestly. I'm willing to listen to solutions or compromises that achieve the goal.
This post was edited on 6/22/14 at 4:28 pm
Posted by corndeaux
Member since Sep 2009
9634 posts
Posted on 6/23/14 at 7:39 am to
quote:

A soft cap makes it more difficult it seems to me


I think it works much better post CBA. Teams that really want to, can spend to their heart's desire. Yet, there are now stiff penalties in taxes and roster moves that come with that largesse. Miami crippled their chances at a championship because they were afraid of the new tax rules.

Plus a soft cap gives teams a way to grow and keep their cores together longer. I'm very much interested in protecting that. If OKC had to trade not just Harden, but also Ibaka or Westbrook due to a hard cap that would be bad for the sport.

quote:

And I'm not a fan of the completely guaranteed contract, honestly.


I disagree. I think it's fairly ridiculous that there are no guaranteed contracts in the NFL of all leagues. And again, the CBA fixed some of this by severely reducing player salaries and limiting contract length to no more than 4 years for almost everyone. If we want to reward the good organizations then there should be repercussions for making bad moves. You offer Josh Smith 4/$58 when you already have Monroe and Drummond, you deserve to live with it.

For me, the big issue the NBA has to fix is revenue sharing. The league barely mentioned this during the lockout. They claimed (dubiously) it was a matter for ownership and it was in discussion. I still haven't seen any indication that they did create rules or what they are. It's a problem when the Lakers get ~$200M a YEAR (enough to cover payroll at least 2 times) in tv contracts while the Pelicans are at around $12M.

None of the other stuff I've seen- raising the age minimum, franchise tag, etc- really makes a difference in setting teams on more equal footing.
Posted by VOR
Member since Apr 2009
63495 posts
Posted on 6/23/14 at 1:45 pm to
I think Jamal Mashburn and, maybe, Baron Davis gave me a bad attitude regarding guaranteed contracts. But I can see your argument.

And, Bingo! You're right on about revenue sharing. I think it cures a lot of ills.
Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
61489 posts
Posted on 6/23/14 at 1:49 pm to
quote:

For me, the big issue the NBA has to fix is revenue sharing. The league barely mentioned this during the lockout. They claimed (dubiously) it was a matter for ownership and it was in discussion. I still haven't seen any indication that they did create rules or what they are. It's a problem when the Lakers get ~$200M a YEAR (enough to cover payroll at least 2 times) in tv contracts while the Pelicans are at around $12M.



quote:

The CBA also boosted revenue sharing from the NBA’s haves to have-nots. Only $55 million changed hands under the prior CBA, but low revenue teams were supplemented nearly $120 million last season mainly from the league’s top revenue clubs. Close to $200 million is expected to change hands this season based on last season’s financials. Former perennial money losers like the Charlotte Bobcats, Milwaukee Bucks and Memphis Grizzlies all turned a profit last season thanks to at least $10 million each in revenue sharing. Overall, only four teams lost money on an operating basis by our count.

LINK /
Posted by corndeaux
Member since Sep 2009
9634 posts
Posted on 6/23/14 at 7:06 pm to
Must have missed that. Thanks.

I did check out Larry Coon's CBA FAQ for this. I'm still not convinced it's enough.

It's number 24. Or just find "revenue sharing" on the page

ETA: The link brings you straight there
This post was edited on 6/23/14 at 7:09 pm
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