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An Insider Reflects on the Waco Standoff

Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:19 pm
Posted by boxcarbarney
Above all things, be a man
Member since Jul 2007
22742 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:19 pm
I was in high school when all of this went down. I don't really remember much, only the oft shown footage of the Branch Davidians shooting through the roof at federal agents and the fire that ended the standoff. I found this article interesting from a point of view that has not been touched on much by the main stream media.

LINK

quote:

“A Journey to Waco,” Doyle’s memoir, is an account of what it means to be a religious radical—to worship on the fringes of contemporary Christianity. Doyle takes the story from his childhood in Australia through the extraordinary events of 1993, when some eighty armed agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raided the Mount Carmel community, in an effort to serve a search and arrest warrant on Koresh, on suspicion of violating federal firearms rules. “I want you all to go back to your rooms and stay calm,” Doyle recalls Koresh saying, as federal agents descended on Mount Carmel. Doyle goes on, “I could hear David’s steps going down the hall toward the front door. . . . Then all of a sudden I heard David say: ‘Hey, wait a minute! There are women and children in here!’ Then all hell broke loose—just a barrage of shots from outside coming in. It sounded like a bloodbath.”


quote:

Outside the Mount Carmel complex, the F.B.I. assembled what has been called probably the largest military force ever gathered against a civilian suspect in American history: ten Bradley tanks, two Abrams tanks, four combat-engineering vehicles, six hundred and sixty-eight agents in addition to six U.S. Customs officers, fifteen U.S. Army personnel, thirteen members of the Texas National Guard, thirty-one Texas Rangers, a hundred and thirty-one officers from the Texas Department of Public Safety, seventeen from the McLennan County sheriff’s office, and eighteen Waco police, for a total of eight hundred and ninety-nine people. Their task, as they saw it, was to peel away the pretense—Koresh’s posturing, his lies, his grandiosity—and compel him to take specific steps toward a resolution.


quote:

On another occasion, the Davidians asked the F.B.I. to bring milk for their children, and the bureau insisted that some of the children be released before the supplies were handed over:



F.B.I.: We got the milk for you . . . we’ll bring the milk down. We’ll drop it off. . . . In return, we want four of your kids to come up, and we’re going to give you the milk for the kids.

This is how negotiations are supposed to work: tit for tat. But what proposal could have been more offensive and perplexing to a Branch Davidian? The bureau wanted to separate children from their parents and extract them from the community to which they belonged in exchange for milk. “That doesn’t make any sense,” a Davidian named Kathy S. tells the negotiator. But the negotiator thinks she means that the terms of the deal aren’t good enough:



F.B.I.: Listen. I’ll, I’ll get the milk to you for two kids.

Again, Kathy S. reacts angrily, and the negotiator gives up. He thinks the problem is that he’s saddled with someone who just isn’t reasonable:



F.B.I.: Kathy, perhaps we’re wasting each other’s time. All right? Put somebody else on.
K.S.: I mean, all you want, all you want to do is bargain?
F.B.I.: Kathy!
K.S.: Are you going to bargain with human lives?
F.B.I.: Kathy! I’ve told you what we’ll do and, and if that’s not agreeable to you, perhaps we’re wasting one another’s time. All right? . . . Why don’t you put somebody else on, please?
K.S.: Look . . . there are babies here that need the milk. Are you that inhumane that you can’t just send us the milk for not sending out kids, or sending out David, or sending out women?
F.B.I.: Our concern, our concern is for those children first and foremost and the rest of you also. All right? The children—
K.S.: So, your concern is that these babies get fed the milk they need?
F.B.I.: Kathy.
K.S.: It doesn’t sound like you are concerned.




This post was edited on 4/14/14 at 3:31 pm
Posted by a want
I love everybody
Member since Oct 2010
19756 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:26 pm to
One of the biggest clusterfricks in the history of our country. I loath Chuck Shumer to this day b/c of the way he handled the hearing on the ATF/Branch Davidians.
Posted by Lsut81
Member since Jun 2005
80161 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:27 pm to
quote:

in an effort to serve a search and arrest warrant on Koresh, on suspicion of violating federal firearms rules


I thought it began with a tax issue and evolved
Posted by ehidal1
Chief Boot Knocka
Member since Dec 2007
37136 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:29 pm to
I just keep thinking of the horrid scene after the Feds gassed and burned those people, every time I read about Waco. Saddens and pisses me off at the same time.

I was 18 at the time and remember seeing the news footage. I didn't really understand what they were doing and just telling myself why don't the people just listen?

Funny how much your thinking changes from 18 to 38.
Posted by boxcarbarney
Above all things, be a man
Member since Jul 2007
22742 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:31 pm to
quote:

I thought it began with a tax issue and evolved


Was it? I have no idea.
Posted by a want
I love everybody
Member since Oct 2010
19756 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:32 pm to
quote:

news footage.

The waco news media were rolling their eyes and laughing/making fun of them on the air. The ATF was looking for any excuse to start shooting. They treated them as if they they were sub-human. It was awful.
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:33 pm to
We road tripped to waco during the standoff during spring break. My friend bought a "we ain't coming out" t-shirt. And tried to buy a handgun but was denied to not having a texas DL.

#truestory

And it was a total CF, and led to several different things.
Posted by a want
I love everybody
Member since Oct 2010
19756 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:35 pm to
This documentary will make your blood boil. It's long but very, very good.

Rules of Engagement
Posted by Lsut81
Member since Jun 2005
80161 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:36 pm to
quote:

Was it? I have no idea.


Guess I was wrong... I was very young, but thought it had to do with Tax issues.


But in reading...

quote:

The search warrant was justified not on the basis of there being proof that the Davidians had purchased anything illegal, but on the basis that they could be modifying legal arms to illegal arms, and that automatic weapon fire had been reported from the compound.[29] The affidavit of Aguilera for the search warrant claimed that there were over 150 weapons in the compound. The paperwork on the AR-15 components cited in the affidavit showed that they were in fact legal semi-automatics; however, Aguilera told the judge: "I have been involved in many cases where defendants, following a relatively simple process, convert AR-15 semi-automatic rifles to fully automatic rifles of the nature of the M-16.


America, frick Yeah
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
112511 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:39 pm to

The basics on Waco.... The BATF was looking at budget cuts and wanted to show that they were worth shite. They're not.

They found out that David Koresh had some guns in a compound of cultish folks. If they wanted to arrest Koresh all they had to do was go down to Krogers in Waco on Saturday afternoon and arrest him when he went shopping.

Instead they decided to go military style assault and they got met with guns. An officer got shot.

Janet Reno sent in tanks under the pretext that children were being abused (they weren't). The compound was destroyed and everybody died (including the children).

Janet Reno said "I take responsibility." But she didn't get fired. This is when Dem's realized that all you had to say for a frick up was "I take responsibility" and then carry on.
This post was edited on 4/14/14 at 3:41 pm
Posted by Homesick Tiger
Greenbrier, AR
Member since Nov 2006
54212 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:43 pm to
quote:

This is when Dem's realized that all you had to say for a frick up was "I take responsibility" and then carry on.


And now has morphed into "what difference does it make."
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
260877 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:46 pm to
quote:


I thought it began with a tax issue and evolved


Nah, child abuse and weapons.

They had opportunities to capture Koresh as he traveled to town by himself several times before, but opted not to take him that way.
Posted by Lsut81
Member since Jun 2005
80161 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:48 pm to
quote:

Nah, child abuse and weapons.

They had opportunities to capture Koresh as he traveled to town by himself several times before, but opted not to take him that way.


Yeah, went back and did some quick reading... I was young at the time, but remember it on tv.

I posted a lovely quote about how they were able to get the warrant. fricking disgusting.
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:51 pm to
quote:

Janet Reno sent in tanks under the pretext that children were being abused (they weren't). The compound was destroyed and everybody died (including the children).

The children were abused. He was having sex with 14 year olds.

Now the ATF had no right to go in based off of that. But those kids were being sexually abused, even if it was legal.
Posted by boxcarbarney
Above all things, be a man
Member since Jul 2007
22742 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:53 pm to
quote:

OK, I was there and paying attention. What do you want to know?


In what capacity were you there? Official or bystander?
Posted by a want
I love everybody
Member since Oct 2010
19756 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 3:56 pm to
quote:

The children were abused. He was having sex with 14 year olds. Now the ATF had no right to go in based off of that. But those kids were being sexually abused, even if it was legal.

Right. And the best way to help these children in this situation was to fire 400 cannisters of CS gas (which is flamable) into the compound....rather than, as it has been pointed out, picked the dude up at Kroger on one of his weekely errands.
Posted by AUin02
Member since Jan 2012
4281 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 4:00 pm to
I barely remember Waco, was in middle school I think. From my perspective now it just looks like ridiculous govt over reaction to a situation.

But drumming up a boogie man to justify budget overruns/MIC style expenditures is an old Beltway tradition.
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 4:01 pm to
quote:

Right. And the best way to help these children in this situation was to fire 400 cannisters of CS gas (which is flamable) into the compound....rather than, as it has been pointed out, picked the dude up at Kroger on one of his weekely errands.

oh, it was a total CF! And managed terribly by the ATF, FBI and justice. There was no reason to kill all of those people.

but let's not pretend like David Koresh was some sort of good person. He was a cult leader that enjoyed fricking young women, usually with their parents consenting. That is some fricked up shite right there. Can you imagine saying to some dude, go ahead and frick my 14 year old daughter, its cool.
Posted by BeYou
DFW
Member since Oct 2012
6025 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 4:03 pm to
I live in Waco and have been to the site (which is actually just outside Waco).

There is a memorial there and people still live on the property. There is also still a church on site.
Posted by Lsut81
Member since Jun 2005
80161 posts
Posted on 4/14/14 at 4:03 pm to
quote:

but let's not pretend like David Koresh was some sort of good person. He was a cult leader that enjoyed fricking young women, usually with their parents consenting. That is some fricked up shite right there. Can you imagine saying to some dude, go ahead and frick my 14 year old daughter, its cool.


Its fricking sick, but you capture him when he is out and about.... Instead of taking him quietly, they kill everyone that were trying to save.
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