re: An Insider Reflects on the Waco Standoff

[quote]The children were abused. He was having sex with 14 year olds.[/quote

So, we have to save the children by killing them? Interesting logic, Hawk.

Instances like that one, whether you be a R or a D, should make us all realize what government in THIS COUNTRY is capable of doing.

I bet if you asked the FBI and ATF officers two months prior if they would terminally endanger innocent children if ordered to by their bosses, or quit....to a man they would have likely all said they would quit.

At the end of the day, law enforcement personnel and military personnel have to put food on their own tables and pay their own bills.

The result is that while they may like you, they love themselves (just like us all).

When starring down the possibility of losing their job due to insubordination or court marshal, the vast majority are going to carry out their orders IMO.

Elections really do have consequences, when those orders come from on high.

I truly believe at any given time, we are one presidential election away from the wheels falling off the wagon.

ATF had undercover agents in and shooting with Koresh in the time leading up to the raids. Koresh knew they were undercover, yet still handed them guns to shoot with.

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The official explanation is that the raid was intended to gather evidence in support of suspicion that the residents of Mount Carmel (members of the Branch Davidians, an offshoot of Seventh-Day Adventism), possessed machineguns without the required licenses and tax, and that nothing but overwhelming military force would enable he arrest of their leader, David Koresh, and a search of the residence.

The official version is undercut by BATF's concession that, when informed of the investigation, Koresh invited agents to come over, look at the firearms, and take any that they might feel were questionable. It is also undercut by a rather embarassing event. Thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, we now know how ATF undercover agents investigating the case spent February 19, 1993--nine days before the raid.

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--a taped conversation between the wounded Koresh and ATF agent Cavanaugh, at the end of the gunbattle, in which Koresh says he "really liked" the ATF agent who investigated him, and had "always loved law enforcement, 'cuz y'all guys risk your lives every day

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ATF's affidavits contend that all of its photographic and video evidence met a sticky end. In particular:


The "official" videocam, set up to film the operation, mysteriously ejected its tapes rather than recording them. The agency attributes this to radio interference from nearby transmitters. (Strange, since video remote controls work on infrared, not radio, signals. Just as strange, the agency admits that when it attempted to duplicate the occurence, it was unable to make it happen.).

That wasn't the only "official" videocam filming the front of the building during the raid. There was another, mounted on a tripod beside the communications van. And another at a sniper position. And still another (although this may overlap with one of the first two) filming from an "elevated position." Mysteriously, none of these videotapes can be found. And the agency officials who saw them in the past say that every single camera malfunctioned in the seconds before the raid. (Quality control isn't what it used to be apparently.). The only clue was that these videos may have been given to the Texas Rangers. But when I asked for copies from the Rangers, they replied that the videos were in Rangers' possession, but not in their control. Control was vested in the U.S. Marshall's Office, for whom they had gathered them. I then made a FOIA request to the Marshall's Office.... which said they could not produce them, since they were not in their control. [I've since sent this letter to the Rangers, but have not gotten a reaction.].

The "official" still camera's film....and indeed the official still camera...vanished from a table in raid headquarters, surrounded by Federal agents, during the raid. At least that's what the ATF's Public Information Office swore happened. (Crime may be rising, but you would think a room full of Federal agents would be safe from thieves).

While "unofficial" cameras were there in abundance (three of the four agents killed had them, and the videos of agents show them wandering around snapping pictures), their film seems to have wandered off. Despite a court order, only two rolls of film could be found, neither of them depicting the raid itself.

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responsible supervisors were fired but re-hired with back pay, attorneys' fees, and an agreement to change their personnel files.

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The raid plan was, under the circumstances, near insanity: agents would be packed, shoulder-to-shoulder, inside cattle trailers, which would approach the building in broad daylight. At the cry of "Showtime!" the agents would pour out, divide into four columns, and storm the building. Some would surround the building, others would take ladders to the right side, go in the second floor with flash bang grenades, and still others would storm the front door with battering rams. The dogs would be sprayed with fire extinguishes and, if they did not depart, shot on the spot. The raid plan overlooked the fact that humans were involved. Both sides might be armed as the agents came running up; over a hundred persons would be looking down the muzzles of each others' guns, hands shaking, adrenalin pumping, tunnel vision setting in, each person convinced that if shooting broke out they would be the first hit.... a sitation where one gunshot would result in everyone present, on both sides, yanking the trigger. All in all, not a setting for setting off stun grenades and shooting dogs. And the dogs were indeed shot, as agents later testified.

The raid plan assumed that all male Davidians would be outside and behind the building, working on a construction project, and thus in a position to be cut off when the cattle trailers pulled up at the front. In fact, the intelligence reports said only that many Davidians were often working on the project. The plan assumed all the firearms were in a second-floor room on the extreme right of the building; a special team would dramatically scale ladders and seize that room to cut off all access to firearms. In fact, the intelligence was years old; the firearms had been moved months before to a first-floor room in the central building. Men would die storming an empty room. Under the raid plan, three National Guard helicopters would race in at the back, just before the raid began, to distract everyone as the cattle trailers pulled up in front.

The helicopters were late, arriving only as the raid and the firing began. An audiotape of ATF radio traffic (which the agency admits was not revealed to Congressional investigators) shows why. To listen to the tape, click here. The two raid commanders got on different radio channels and could not converse. The radiovan tries to sort out the confusion, instructing the commanders to reset their "Sabres" (portable encrypted radios), without success. For nearly four minutes before the raid begins (the transmitted announcement of "Showtime!"), the ground commander (Cavanaugh) is calling to the air commander (Chojnacki, pronounced "Wynaski") in increasing desperation for the helicopter support.

The arrival of the helicopters poses another critical question. Several Davidians state that the first shots came from the approaching helicopters; government witnesses, in contrast, deny that any shots were fired from the aircraft--although a memo of the training exercises mentions using gunshots from aircraft to add to the distraction. The video made from the helicopters has, however, an interesting soundtrack... with gunshots audible. To view the Quicktime video, click here. (1 meg.; can take 8-10 minutes to download). If you would just like to hear the soundtrack, click here. Note that (according to the pilot's testimony) the helicopters never got closer than 350 yards to the building.The pilots I've spoken with suggest hearing groundfire at the distance, over the helicopter's engine, rotor, and transmission noise, is highly unlikely. Further (although the helicopters are rapidly approaching the ground battle) the sound of gunshots ceases, rather than becomes louder, as they pull up and pass the building. It'd be strange gunfire which was audible at 500 yards, yet inaudible at 350.

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but let's not pretend like David Koresh was some sort of good person. He was a cult leader that enjoyed fricking young women, usually with their parents consenting. That is some fricked up shite right there. Can you imagine saying to some dude, go ahead and frick my 14 year old daughter, its cool.

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As I watched it unfold, I kept thinking of Jim Jones. The Jonestown massacre had only been about 15 years prior. And hell, Manson's 'Helter-Skelter' had only been less than 25 years prior.

I couldn't help but think those people were all doomed no matter what - and then the government went and killed them.

But those personality cults are bad fricking news.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

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Why didn't Koresh allow the women and children to leave?

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Many chose not to. Leave to go into the arms of agents who had shot and killed their friends. Who were using psychological warfare against them, that included their children. And if you'll watch the documentary, you'll see one, who tried to escape during the fire, who were ran over repeatedly by the tank that was busting and inserting even more CS gas into the structure.

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Doesn't excuse the way the government handled it one iota, however.

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If anything, knowing you are dealing with someone that is unstable should result in more care...not less...not lawlessness and recklessness.

And.. the whitewash and those responsible for giving a free pass to Gov't murder of it's citizens...

IV. Conclusion

The committee's 13-month investigation of Waco was
unnecessary, expensive, and fruitless. Although the majority
report spans 100 pages and includes nearly 1,400 pages of
documentary exhibits, it contributes virtually nothing to the
public's understanding of Waco. Many of the report's findings
duplicate those of the Special Counsel, former Senator John C.
Danforth. In his report, Senator Danforth determined, among
other things, that government agents did not cause or
contribute to the fire that consumed the Branch Davidian
compound on April 19, 1993, did not direct gunfire at the
Branch Davidians on April 19, and did not unlawfully employ
U.S. armed forces at any time during the standoff. To the
extent the majority report deviates from Senator Danforth's
findings, it consists largely of unsupported allegations of
wrongdoing by the Attorney General and Justice Department
officials.

Hon. Henry A. Waxman.
Hon. Tom Lantos.
Hon. Major R. Owens.
Hon. Edolphus Towns.
Hon. Paul E. Kanjorski.
Hon. Carolyn B. Maloney.
Hon. Eleanor Holmes Norton.
Hon. Chaka Fattah.
Hon. Elijah E. Cummings.
Hon. Dennis J. Kucinich.
Hon. Rod R. Blagojevich.
Hon. Danny K. Davis.
Hon. John F. Tierney.
Hon. Jim Turner.
Hon. Harold E. Ford, Jr.

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quote]Janet Reno sent in tanks under the pretext that children were being abused [/quote]

She also stated that they were afraid Koresh would administer a "mass suicide" ala Marxist Jim Jones in Guyana.

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Why didn't Koresh allow the women and children to leave?

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He wasn't preventing them from leaving. They wanted to stay. You're making the same mistake the FBI made. You assume his followers were hostages. They were all willing.

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Why didn't Koresh allow the women and children to leave?

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It doesn't seem like you read the article because he wasn't preventing them from leaving. They could've left at any time.