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Message
$9.6M "stolen" by "cheating" at casino
Posted on 4/12/14 at 9:56 am
Posted on 4/12/14 at 9:56 am
LINK
I've never understood how this is considered cheating. Especially "cheating" enough to get in trouble for it. The way I see it, the casino is at fault for their own losses for using defective cards. Think about it, if you noticed all the face cards had a different pattern or color or shade on them compared to non-face cards, would you not use that to your advantage? I don't see how it's any different than knowing when another player is bluffing by noticing changes in their behavior.
quote:
The lawsuit alleges Ivey and an associate exploited a defect in cards made by a Kansas City manufacturer that enabled them to sort and arrange good cards in baccarat.
quote:
The lawsuit claims the cards, manufactured by Gemaco Inc., were defective in that the pattern on the back of them was not uniform.
quote:
The casino claims the technique, called edge sorting, violates New Jersey casino gambling regulations.
I've never understood how this is considered cheating. Especially "cheating" enough to get in trouble for it. The way I see it, the casino is at fault for their own losses for using defective cards. Think about it, if you noticed all the face cards had a different pattern or color or shade on them compared to non-face cards, would you not use that to your advantage? I don't see how it's any different than knowing when another player is bluffing by noticing changes in their behavior.
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Posted on 4/12/14 at 9:58 am to twoliter
It's always cheating if somebody figures out how to beat the house.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 9:59 am to twoliter
It's not cheating at all. Phil cleaned them out and they mad.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:01 am to Byron Bojangles III
LINK
Not the first time Phil Ivey has been accused of something like this.
Not the first time Phil Ivey has been accused of something like this.
This post was edited on 4/12/14 at 10:04 am
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:01 am to Byron Bojangles III
quote:
It's not cheating at all. Phil cleaned them out and they mad.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:07 am to twoliter
quote:
I've never understood how this is considered cheating. Especially "cheating" enough to get in trouble for it. The way I see it, the casino is at fault for their own losses for using defective cards.
Casinos are racist against intelligent people.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:09 am to twoliter
It would only be cheating if somehow they planted those cards or an employee was in on it.
The casino exploits any edge it can get, as should the customer.
If you can tell what a card is, are you going to point that out?
If you can "tell" what cards a person has, by there expression, do you point out their tell?
C'mon, is gambling. The point is to win.
The casino exploits any edge it can get, as should the customer.
If you can tell what a card is, are you going to point that out?
If you can "tell" what cards a person has, by there expression, do you point out their tell?
C'mon, is gambling. The point is to win.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:10 am to shutterspeed
Counting cards is not illegal or cheating. This is fairly similar in many ways. But it does rely on a bad deck of cards and a dealer who does not follow proper procedure. He was not damaging the cards to get an edge, which would be clearly cheating. He was simply observant.
It's his responsibility to let the casino know if there are any flaws in their game? Absolutely bogus. What if the casino had a payout on a machine properly posted, but there was an edge if you knew how to play optimally? Then they refused to pay him when he won? They are offering a game, with a set of rules, which he follows, and then they don't want to pay out.
They aren't marked. The dealer voluntarily turned them upside down at his request.
Again, it's not his responsibility to notify the casino of their mistakes. They fricked up at their job, and they want him responsible.
It's his responsibility to let the casino know if there are any flaws in their game? Absolutely bogus. What if the casino had a payout on a machine properly posted, but there was an edge if you knew how to play optimally? Then they refused to pay him when he won? They are offering a game, with a set of rules, which he follows, and then they don't want to pay out.
They aren't marked. The dealer voluntarily turned them upside down at his request.
Again, it's not his responsibility to notify the casino of their mistakes. They fricked up at their job, and they want him responsible.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:11 am to twoliter
Zero sympathy for the casino given. Their fault. Shut up, Get better cards, and learn from it. I should cry because a casino lost 9.6 million dollars? Do they cry when they fleece people out of much more money? No, so, 
who cares? You lost and it's your own damn fault too. Cry me a river.
who cares? You lost and it's your own damn fault too. Cry me a river. Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:15 am to twoliter
You left out the part where the dealer may have been involved. If the dealer is not involved I agree with you. Guess that's why they're going to court.
quote:
The lawsuit claims that Ivey and his companion instructed a dealer to flip cards in particular ways, depending on whether it was a desirable card in baccarat. The numbers 6, 7, 8 and 9 are considered good cards. Bad cards would be flipped in different directions, so that after several hands of cards, the good ones were arranged in a certain manner -- with the irregular side of the card facing in a specific direction -- that Ivey could spot when they came out of the dealer chute.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:17 am to Mike da Tigah
Counting cards is not illegal but the casino sets rules that it follows and mandates players follow. If you are caught counting cards they refuse to pay. I have no sympathy for the casino but this is similar to counting cards. Phil noticed the pattern on the deck (from reading this might be a common problem) and instructed the dealer to turn cards certain ways.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:17 am to weadjust
That still isn't illegal. They just asked the dealer to flip the cards a certain way. Does that mean they paid the dealer? No.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:17 am to Mike da Tigah
If there is a flaw In a companies stock trading software and you exploited it to make money, do you think they would make you give it back?
It's outside of the structure and intent of the game.
It's outside of the structure and intent of the game.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:18 am to twoliter
How can they prove this is how he won?
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:19 am to barry
quote:
If there is a flaw In a companies stock trading software and you exploited it to make money, do you think they would make you give it back? It's outside of the structure and intent of the game.
Get better cards. Problem solved.
Don't ask people to turn their brain off and not think.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:23 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:
Don't ask people to turn their brain off and not think.
That's not what gambling is, it falls outside of the intent of the game.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:35 am to barry
If I notice pattern changes in cards human nature is going to take over and will drive me to naturally want to use that to my advantage. No pattern changes, no more problem. It's the damn casinos own fault.
They already shuffle and deal to their own advantage with preferential shuffling. It's not as if these people are falling into the intent of the game rather than the intent to make the house money. It's their job, and it's also their job to buy better cards so this doesn't happen.
They already shuffle and deal to their own advantage with preferential shuffling. It's not as if these people are falling into the intent of the game rather than the intent to make the house money. It's their job, and it's also their job to buy better cards so this doesn't happen.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:36 am to twoliter
Can they even prove this?
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:41 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:
If I notice pattern changes in cards human nature is going to take over and will drive me to naturally want to use that to my advantage. No pattern changes, no more problem. It's the damn casinos own fault.
If it's one instance, then it's not a big deal.
If you systematically exploit this, then you should have to give it back.
Posted on 4/12/14 at 10:45 am to tigerman03
quote:
It's always cheating if somebody figures out how to beat the house
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