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Message
Budget comparisons between St George & other Louisiana cities
Posted on 1/8/14 at 10:45 am
Posted on 1/8/14 at 10:45 am
I have consistently said the proposed budget of the new city of St George is unrealistic and is being purposefully low-balled by the organizers in order to keep from losing support.
If residents were told the truth about the city's finances, they would be less likely to support the effort just because of the likely significant tax increases they would have to pay just for city services, excluding any additional taxes for the school system.
The figures below are from the various Louisiana cities' websites, including the website for St George. As you can see, I've included two existing cities in East Baton Rouge Parish as well as cities outside of EBR.
I've used the latest budget and population figures for each city that I can find on the internet.
The information is ONLY for the city governments, not the school systems.
For Bossier City I included only the general fund budget + capital expenditures on infrastructure and did not include that city's spending on water, sewer and its special "riverboat gaming district" expenses as those would not be applicable to a St George budget.
I've compared the budgets based on a per capita and a per square mile basis. The square miles used in the analysis are ONLY land area. I've excluded the area of each city which is made up of water.
Decide for yourself if the SG budget looks reasonable.
City-Baker
Population 13,890
Annual Budget $11,828,849
Budget/Capita $852
Area (Square Miles) 8.5
Budget/Sq Mile $1,391,629
City-Zachary
Population 15,099
Annual Budget $14,402,029
Budget/Capita $954
Area (Square Miles) 23.7 (Zachary is approximately 30% undeveloped rural land.)
Budget/Sq Mile $607,681
City-Bossier City
Population 64,655
Annual Budget $73,163,541
Budget/Capita $1,132
Area (Square Miles) 43.2
Budget/Sq Mile $1,694,777
City-Lake Charles
Population 71,993
Annual Budget $63,922,612
Budget/Capita $888
Area (Square Miles) 42.1
Budget/Sq Mile $1,518,352
City-Monroe
Population 49,156
Annual Budget $55,300,000
Budget/Capita $1,125
Area (Square Miles) 28.7
Budget/Sq Mile $1,926,829
Average for All Cities Above
Population 42,959
Annual Budget $43,723,406
Budget/Capita $990
Area (Square Miles) 29.2
Budget/Sq Mile $1,427,854
City-St George
Population 107,000
Annual Budget $60,297,728
Budget/Capita $564
Area (Square Miles) 85.0
Budget/Sq Mile $709,385
If residents were told the truth about the city's finances, they would be less likely to support the effort just because of the likely significant tax increases they would have to pay just for city services, excluding any additional taxes for the school system.
The figures below are from the various Louisiana cities' websites, including the website for St George. As you can see, I've included two existing cities in East Baton Rouge Parish as well as cities outside of EBR.
I've used the latest budget and population figures for each city that I can find on the internet.
The information is ONLY for the city governments, not the school systems.
For Bossier City I included only the general fund budget + capital expenditures on infrastructure and did not include that city's spending on water, sewer and its special "riverboat gaming district" expenses as those would not be applicable to a St George budget.
I've compared the budgets based on a per capita and a per square mile basis. The square miles used in the analysis are ONLY land area. I've excluded the area of each city which is made up of water.
Decide for yourself if the SG budget looks reasonable.
City-Baker
Population 13,890
Annual Budget $11,828,849
Budget/Capita $852
Area (Square Miles) 8.5
Budget/Sq Mile $1,391,629
City-Zachary
Population 15,099
Annual Budget $14,402,029
Budget/Capita $954
Area (Square Miles) 23.7 (Zachary is approximately 30% undeveloped rural land.)
Budget/Sq Mile $607,681
City-Bossier City
Population 64,655
Annual Budget $73,163,541
Budget/Capita $1,132
Area (Square Miles) 43.2
Budget/Sq Mile $1,694,777
City-Lake Charles
Population 71,993
Annual Budget $63,922,612
Budget/Capita $888
Area (Square Miles) 42.1
Budget/Sq Mile $1,518,352
City-Monroe
Population 49,156
Annual Budget $55,300,000
Budget/Capita $1,125
Area (Square Miles) 28.7
Budget/Sq Mile $1,926,829
Average for All Cities Above
Population 42,959
Annual Budget $43,723,406
Budget/Capita $990
Area (Square Miles) 29.2
Budget/Sq Mile $1,427,854
City-St George
Population 107,000
Annual Budget $60,297,728
Budget/Capita $564
Area (Square Miles) 85.0
Budget/Sq Mile $709,385
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Posted on 1/8/14 at 10:50 am to LSURussian
quote:
Decide for yourself if the SG budget looks reasonable.
This is the kind of information I want. Like i've said before, i want more information from the SG organizers as to what they plan on doing to run the city. Departments needed/created. What we lose by incorporating, what we gain. Taxes we no longer pay to BR vs. taxes we pay towards SG.
But like i've said before, the antagonistic nature of those on the council that oppose SG is enough to entrench those in support of SG incorporation.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 10:53 am to LSURussian
quote:
they would be less likely to support the effort just because of the likely significant tax increases they would have to pay just for city services, excluding any additional taxes for the school system.
My guess is they wouldn't mind paying more, if they actually got something in return and saw a better use of their tax dollars.
Why is this so hard to understand.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 10:55 am to Elcid96
quote:
My guess is they wouldn't mind paying more, if they actually got something in return and saw a better use of their tax dollars.
Why is this so hard to understand.
I agree with this. I also believe, though, that we need more information about the actual costs of St. George.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 10:56 am to BugAC
Due to an economy of scale, the budget per capita should go down seeing how there are many, many costs that are fixed despite population. If any city can operate at a given tax level, why would a change in gov't structure require a change in the tax level unless the new gov't is less efficient?
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:01 am to LSURussian
What benefits does the SG area and its citizens get in return for their tax dollars now going to the city/parish government? How much of the proposed budget would be made up by way of not sending the taxes to the city anymore?
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:01 am to Elcid96
quote:It's not hard to understand.
Why is this so hard to understand.
But why don't the organizers just tell the truth and let people decide based on facts and not on fantasy and lies?
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:02 am to CITWTT
quote:Such as?
What benefits does the SG area and its citizens get in return for their tax dollars now going to the city/parish government?
quote:Such as?
How much of the proposed budget would be made up by way of not sending the taxes to the city anymore?
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:09 am to NorthEnd
quote:The numbers above don't support your assumption. The larger cities spend more per capita on average, not less.
Due to an economy of scale, the budget per capita should go down
Even between the two EBR cites, the more populated one spends more per capita than the less populated city.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:09 am to LSURussian
quote:
Such as?
I believed he asked the question, as in questions he would like answered, but factor that you may not be considering.
You seem to have done some homework on the issue, but your research seems biased against SG. It does not seem objective at all. I have yet to hear you come up with 1 positive for SG. That right there might tell you something.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:12 am to LSURussian
StG effectively has taxation without representation in the current scenario. It's incredibly frustrating. The disparity between %of tax dollars paid and % of benefits is great. Simple things like # of libraries and parks are a microcosm of the problem. 2 of EBR's 20 libraries are in STG, but it represents somewhere between 62and 73% of the revenue depending on what source you look at.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:14 am to LSURussian
Question: Are these cities providing all of the standard city "services" themselves (e.g., trash collection, law enforcement, sewerage, road maintenance, cleaning/clearing of public areas, etc.)?
Because my understanding is that STG:
will not have sewerage - already parish
will not have trash collection - already parish
will not have LEO - already parish
for which residents already pay the taxes for (either as parish property tax millages or as parish-wide fees).
PLUS, there are private entities that take care of the other "city services" on a contract basis for a fee, which could be where the additional "savings" are coming from.
Just a thought.
Because my understanding is that STG:
will not have sewerage - already parish
will not have trash collection - already parish
will not have LEO - already parish
for which residents already pay the taxes for (either as parish property tax millages or as parish-wide fees).
PLUS, there are private entities that take care of the other "city services" on a contract basis for a fee, which could be where the additional "savings" are coming from.
Just a thought.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:20 am to BugAC
quote:What would you use to compare budgets of existing cities vs. SG? What is unfair about comparing two other existing EBR cities to the reasonableness of St George's budget?
You seem to have done some homework on the issue, but your research seems biased against SG. It does not seem objective at all.
If we just used the average budget per person of only Baker and Zachary, the result, $903/person, is 60% higher than the SG budget. Using that average the SG budget would have to be $93.6 million not the $60.3 million the organizers claim it will be.
In my attempt to be objective, I even threw out one La. city, Port Allen, because its budget/capita is so high, $1,392/person, that it skewed the averages.
quote:What you are doing is called 'deflection' also known as a "Straw Man Argument."
I have yet to hear you come up with 1 positive for SG.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:25 am to LSURussian
Interesting breakdown, thanks for putting it together. I would also be interested in how the economy of scale factors in.
I am not a big-time numbers/budget guy so I have some questions for you
. It is clear that your opinion is that the residents of St. George would end up needing a higher budget and their per capita budget adjusted upward. Say it went up to the average of $990 that you found above. In that case, shouldn't that cover a budget of up to $105,930,000.00? Do you think that would be sufficient to cover the services for the area? Does that essentially mean that taxes would increase by $426 per person over the proposed budget? How does that break down with annual property taxes? Do you have the current per capita for the unincorporated St. George residents as a comparison that you could add to the OP (maybe also the City of BR as well as a comparison since that may be a closer comparison given the scale).
In most of these topics, among other arguments you make, your biggest gripe seems to boil down to "Hey! If you guys go through with this, it will cost more than the initial estimates so you are basing your decision on erroneous info." That may be the case and I'd sure like to see a more detailed explanation/breakdown and a revision of numbers if needed.
However, from what I have heard from many in the proposed area, an increase in property taxes may be worth a school system that is free from the current school board and a government that is more responsive to the issues and needs of the area.
Anyway, thanks for the info.
I am not a big-time numbers/budget guy so I have some questions for you
. It is clear that your opinion is that the residents of St. George would end up needing a higher budget and their per capita budget adjusted upward. Say it went up to the average of $990 that you found above. In that case, shouldn't that cover a budget of up to $105,930,000.00? Do you think that would be sufficient to cover the services for the area? Does that essentially mean that taxes would increase by $426 per person over the proposed budget? How does that break down with annual property taxes? Do you have the current per capita for the unincorporated St. George residents as a comparison that you could add to the OP (maybe also the City of BR as well as a comparison since that may be a closer comparison given the scale). In most of these topics, among other arguments you make, your biggest gripe seems to boil down to "Hey! If you guys go through with this, it will cost more than the initial estimates so you are basing your decision on erroneous info." That may be the case and I'd sure like to see a more detailed explanation/breakdown and a revision of numbers if needed.
However, from what I have heard from many in the proposed area, an increase in property taxes may be worth a school system that is free from the current school board and a government that is more responsive to the issues and needs of the area.
Anyway, thanks for the info.
This post was edited on 1/8/14 at 11:29 am
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:31 am to NorthEnd
quote:And you're incredibly wrong.
StG effectively has taxation without representation in the current scenario. It's incredibly frustrating.
7 of the existing 12 city parish council districts include parts of the St George area.
If anything, the SG area has more representation on the city parish council than the inner city council districts do.
quote:Let's see your numbers to back up your claim.
The disparity between %of tax dollars paid and % of benefits is great.
quote:That is just not true. Not in any stretch of the imagination does the SG area contribute that much of the taxes of EBR. The "source" you quote comes from the bogus claims of the organizers.
but it represents somewhere between 62and 73% of the revenue depending on what source you look at.
The EBR budget is just under $800 million/year. If your statement is true, then SG is paying between $500 million and $600 million in taxes to EBR.
Please show how and where that much revenue comes from SG. You can't do it because it's not true.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:33 am to LSURussian
quote:
What you are doing is called 'deflection' also known as a "Straw Man Argument."
Kind of like answering a question with another question ("such as?")
This post was edited on 1/8/14 at 11:35 am
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:38 am to LSURussian
quote:
LSURussian
Appears you are in support of incorporation of St George?
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:41 am to Tiger at Law
Your questions are good ones and I'd like to help answer them, but I've already spent all morning just coming up with the numbers I showed in my OP.
I don't have time to research your very valid questions. Perhaps you do or maybe someone else who is interested in facts would like to do so.
I wonder why they don't?
Both Zachary and Central increased their school taxes after they established their own school district. Zachary's school taxes are almost double the EBR property tax rate. Central's school property taxes are about 60% more than the EBR school system's property taxes.
If the organizers would just point out those facts, along with a reasonably comparative city budget to the residents of SG, I'd have no basis for criticizing their efforts.
I don't have time to research your very valid questions. Perhaps you do or maybe someone else who is interested in facts would like to do so.
quote:True.
your biggest gripe seems to boil down to "Hey! If you guys go through with this, it will cost more than the initial estimates so you are basing your decision on erroneous info.
quote:You would think someone involved in the organization effort would take the time to do just that.
That may be the case and I'd sure like to see a more detailed explanation/breakdown and a revision of numbers if needed.
I wonder why they don't?
quote:The increase in taxes for the new school district is separate from the increase in taxes needed for the city itself.
an increase in property taxes may be worth a school system that is free from the current school board
Both Zachary and Central increased their school taxes after they established their own school district. Zachary's school taxes are almost double the EBR property tax rate. Central's school property taxes are about 60% more than the EBR school system's property taxes.
If the organizers would just point out those facts, along with a reasonably comparative city budget to the residents of SG, I'd have no basis for criticizing their efforts.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:41 am to dcrews
quote:Wrong. I wanted some specifics of his questions.
Kind of like answering a question with another question ("such as?")
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:43 am to LSURussian
The organizers think they can incorporate without raising taxes.
They have not mentioned how much it would take to run a school district.
In fact they've been clear that there is "no guarantee that taxes won't need to be raised". I think they have a significant need for new school buildings. Those are not cheap.
They have not mentioned how much it would take to run a school district.
In fact they've been clear that there is "no guarantee that taxes won't need to be raised". I think they have a significant need for new school buildings. Those are not cheap.
This post was edited on 1/8/14 at 11:49 am
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