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Started By
Message
ATF Experts needed --- transfer firearm issue
Posted on 1/16/12 at 12:13 am
Posted on 1/16/12 at 12:13 am
OB, I have an interesting situation and I need some expert advise, if anybody is very in tune with ATF regulation regarding the transfer of a firearm.
I'm a resident of Tennessee who has lived in BR since 2007 (LSU). My girlfriend wants to buy me a handgun for my birthday but she's a Florida resident. We're both over 21 and will have no problems with the 4473 background form.
Can she buy the gun in FL, then give it to me as a gift?
Or does the transfer (because it is between residents of two different states) have to go through an FFL dealer in my home state, TN?
It seems silly for her to buy the gun in FL, pay for shipping and transfer fee by a TN FFL dealer and me have to drive all the way to TN just to get it. I'd rather her just call up a TN FFL dealer, pay for the gun over the phone and me drive there and fill out my own 4473 and pick the gun up. Anybody know if I can avoid going to TN at all to get the gun?
TIA
I'm a resident of Tennessee who has lived in BR since 2007 (LSU). My girlfriend wants to buy me a handgun for my birthday but she's a Florida resident. We're both over 21 and will have no problems with the 4473 background form.
Can she buy the gun in FL, then give it to me as a gift?
Or does the transfer (because it is between residents of two different states) have to go through an FFL dealer in my home state, TN?
It seems silly for her to buy the gun in FL, pay for shipping and transfer fee by a TN FFL dealer and me have to drive all the way to TN just to get it. I'd rather her just call up a TN FFL dealer, pay for the gun over the phone and me drive there and fill out my own 4473 and pick the gun up. Anybody know if I can avoid going to TN at all to get the gun?
TIA
This post was edited on 1/16/12 at 12:14 am
Posted on 1/16/12 at 12:30 am to blkhawktiger
Let her get the gun in her name, give you the gun, then you find a good hiding spot for it. Duh.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 7:07 am to blkhawktiger
Technically that's a out if state transfer that needs to go through a ffl, having said that it would be really hard to prove she gave you the gun. You could always argue that it's still technically in her possession.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 7:14 am to blkhawktiger
How about her giving you the money and you buying it?
Posted on 1/16/12 at 7:21 am to blkhawktiger
I'm not familiar with the laws of TN and FL.
You need to check on your state specific laws.
As a LA resident I could have someone buy a gun anywhere and give it to me as a gift without having to report anything or tell anyone. In LA it is perfectly legal for 2 private parties to exchange firearms face to face without any FFL.
You need to check on your state specific laws.
As a LA resident I could have someone buy a gun anywhere and give it to me as a gift without having to report anything or tell anyone. In LA it is perfectly legal for 2 private parties to exchange firearms face to face without any FFL.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 7:28 am to CaptainsWafer
I would think there would be no need for a FFL transfer since no shipping is needed. Would be the same as a private sale at a gun show. Plenty of those guys come in from out of state.
just my opinion, take it for what its worth
just my opinion, take it for what its worth
Posted on 1/16/12 at 7:38 am to blkhawktiger
She cannot give you the gun as a gift. You will have to purchase the gun on your own.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 8:09 am to CaptainsWafer
If she gives me the money, I'd have to go to TN to purchase it as I am not a Louisiana resident.
Don't you still have to be run through a 4473 (required FFL dealer) at a gun show? Technically, the out of state seller is transferring a gun interstate in the buyer's state of residence?
Don't you still have to be run through a 4473 (required FFL dealer) at a gun show? Technically, the out of state seller is transferring a gun interstate in the buyer's state of residence?
Posted on 1/16/12 at 9:02 am to blkhawktiger
The ATF does not and cannot regulate private gifts and private party sales between non-dealers.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 10:14 am to blkhawktiger
I don't know the laws, but here is what I have done.
My dad, a resident of Alabama, bought me a handgun here in Louisiana. He gave it to me as a gift. I am a Louisiana resident. The gun was stolen and recovered in Tennessee. Tennesse shipped it to the city it was stolen from and then they shipped it the JPSO where I live. I have never done any paperwork on the gun other than my dad giving me the original receipt. At no time did any of the 3 different police departments question my ownership of it.
My dad, a resident of Alabama, bought me a handgun here in Louisiana. He gave it to me as a gift. I am a Louisiana resident. The gun was stolen and recovered in Tennessee. Tennesse shipped it to the city it was stolen from and then they shipped it the JPSO where I live. I have never done any paperwork on the gun other than my dad giving me the original receipt. At no time did any of the 3 different police departments question my ownership of it.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 10:53 am to blkhawktiger
quote:
She cannot give you the gun as a gift. You will have to purchase the gun on your own.
Thats crap. She can buy the gun in TN and give it to him as a gift. She just has to be present in TN to buy the gun. She can give it to whoever she wants and there is no paperwork needed.
quote:
My dad, a resident of Alabama, bought me a handgun here in Louisiana.
No he didnt. You cant purchase a handgun in La. if you arent a La. resident. He may have bought it from a private sale, meaning a used gun from somebody but he didnt buy it brand new from a gun dealer.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 11:29 am to Teyeger
He bought it from a gunstore in Chalmette back in 2003 when I returned home from overseas. The receipt is in his name. I don't need to prove to you, but if you would like to bet me them I would have no problem showing you the receipt and all. It might not have been legal ( like I said, I don't know the laws) but that is what happened.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 12:37 pm to iwasthere
I'm not an "ATF expert" and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last nite, but from my understanding of federal firearms law, I'd say,
Yes. On the other hand, there are actions that are illegal due to STATE laws, even though it's legal w/ FEDERAL. I'd say she needs to make sure what she wants to do is also legal w/ STATE laws of FL and TN. She will need to purchase the handgun in her state of residence (FL), fill out ATF form 4473 and successfully pass the instant background check. Do you have any exposure years down the road should the relationship go south????didn't give the gun to him, he stole it from me!") I don't know......could be another can of worms.....
At first I thought it might be a "straw purchase," but it's clearly a "gift purchase." This is clarified from the back of the ATF form 4473:
For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the
firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example,
redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the
actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for
Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT
the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The
licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to
buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is
the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.
quote:
Can she buy the gun in FL, then give it to me as a gift?
Yes. On the other hand, there are actions that are illegal due to STATE laws, even though it's legal w/ FEDERAL. I'd say she needs to make sure what she wants to do is also legal w/ STATE laws of FL and TN. She will need to purchase the handgun in her state of residence (FL), fill out ATF form 4473 and successfully pass the instant background check. Do you have any exposure years down the road should the relationship go south????didn't give the gun to him, he stole it from me!") I don't know......could be another can of worms.....
At first I thought it might be a "straw purchase," but it's clearly a "gift purchase." This is clarified from the back of the ATF form 4473:
For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the
firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example,
redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the
actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for
Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT
the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The
licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to
buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is
the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 12:52 pm to iwasthere
An individual 21 years of age or older may acquire a handgun from a dealer federally licensed to sell firearms in the individual`s state of residence
Your dad didnt fill out the 4473. Therefore it was a straw purchase. If I was you, bet or not I wouldnt be throwing proof around that your dad committed a straw purchase. The penalty is $250,000 fine and 10 years in prison.
Your dad didnt fill out the 4473. Therefore it was a straw purchase. If I was you, bet or not I wouldnt be throwing proof around that your dad committed a straw purchase. The penalty is $250,000 fine and 10 years in prison.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 1:04 pm to Teyeger
I don't care what kind of purchase it was. I was just letting the OP know my experience aside froom laws. Like I said in my original post, 3 different police departments, 1 from Tennesse and 2 from Louisiana, never questioned my ownership of the gun. For the court case, my gun was evidence and I had to give a written statement that it was my gun and that it was stolen from me in Louisiana. The guy got 10.5 yrs for drugs and firearm possession.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 1:23 pm to iwasthere
And I was just letting you know that your dad didnt fill out the 4473 and buy the handgun in La. when he was a resident of Alabama.
The rest of your story, I have no disagreement with.
The rest of your story, I have no disagreement with.
quote:
The guy got 10.5 yrs for drugs and firearm possession.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 1:46 pm to Teyeger
You made it sound as if I was lieing. All I did was tell my story.
Posted on 1/16/12 at 3:25 pm to iwasthere
quote:
My dad, a resident of Alabama, bought me a handgun here in Louisiana. He gave it to me as a gift. I am a Louisiana resident.
I'm not disputing that your dad, although a resident of AL, bought the handgun in LA. This is generally not allowable w/in federal/state handgun laws, although it CAN legally be done w/ shotguns and long guns. I'm sure there are exceptions, such as military service and such. I don't know what the legal exception would've been in this case.
Nevertheless, I don't think it would qualify as a straw purchase as it was clearly bought to serve as a gift (see info from back of 4473 form above). Unfortunately, all of this is MUCH more confusing than it need be......
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