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Posted on 10/14/16 at 9:57 am to gorillacoco
quote:Is the water in that area held up/or was it raised by locks, etc.? That's the issue a bit north of you.
It's completely destroyed the manchac/maurepas area as far as duck hunting goes.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 9:57 am to gorillacoco
Definitely. A very good example of what you just said is the current situation in Bayou Sauvage.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 10:06 am to AlxTgr
You can't allow noobs to get into a sport brah. They drive up the price of leases, and bogart your public holes. Ruins everything.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 10:07 am to bluemoons
I guess that part gets alittle fuzzier to me. Are there more ducks being killed on nearby areas with less pressure? I don't doubt what you are saying. I'm just not sure about the effect on the migration.
I think it would be much harder to attribute migration patterns at the flyway scale to localized hunting pressure when weather and agricultural practices are much clearer in the way they impact migration.
At the local level, no doubt, I can understand how it impacts the birds. Birds that can sit on an area devoid of hunting pressure are going to sit there. But at the Flyway level, which I believe is the focal point of this discussion, I don't think it has as much impact.
As for the invasives, I think it is, again a local issue, and a very significant one at that. The problem with Maurepas is the lack of freshwater input, which has enabled invasives to take over.
I think there are a lot more factors that affect waterfowl on the local level. I'm not sure how much that impacts the flyway migration though, especially when you have two overwhelming factors, two landscape level factors that are obviously acting on the migration in changing weather patterns and changing agricultural practices.
I think it would be much harder to attribute migration patterns at the flyway scale to localized hunting pressure when weather and agricultural practices are much clearer in the way they impact migration.
At the local level, no doubt, I can understand how it impacts the birds. Birds that can sit on an area devoid of hunting pressure are going to sit there. But at the Flyway level, which I believe is the focal point of this discussion, I don't think it has as much impact.
As for the invasives, I think it is, again a local issue, and a very significant one at that. The problem with Maurepas is the lack of freshwater input, which has enabled invasives to take over.
I think there are a lot more factors that affect waterfowl on the local level. I'm not sure how much that impacts the flyway migration though, especially when you have two overwhelming factors, two landscape level factors that are obviously acting on the migration in changing weather patterns and changing agricultural practices.
This post was edited on 10/14/16 at 10:10 am
Posted on 10/14/16 at 10:25 am to HogIslandDuckman
Our farmer told us that in addition to more efficient harvesting of crops, the warmer temps in the fall gives what is left on the ground time to respeout. I can drive for miles looking at fileds that have been cut for a month and see nothing but green like a golf course. Those same fields are flooded all winter, and you won't hardly see a duck on them.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 10:26 am to Cowboyfan89
Yes, absolutely. It's striking the differences between not only take numbers, but also general numbers of resting birds in areas affected by pressure as compared to those with less pressure (in St. Bernard/Lake Borgne).
I agree that it's difficult to attribute migration patterns to localized hunting pressure on a small scale, but Louisiana has SO many duck hunters now. It's mind blowing. I also fully agree that the impact is small, but it's there. Factors 1 and 2 in OP are, IMO, the real "controlling" factors.
That said, I also believe repeated pressure like we get can change the migration pattern on a local level, and as the scale of the pressure increases, the scale of the change increases proportionately. The advent of the "top waters" (
) has put a remarkable amount of pressure on ducks as of late, so the scale of that pressure has increased dramatically. I don't mean specifically limited to hunting, either. I'm also referring to things like like running a surface drive through a pond with 1500 resting ducks just because a hunter can't tell what kind of birds they are, after those birds have been shot up all day. That happening a few times on a small scale won't change much, but like I said, as the scale increases, so does the scale of the change.
I have no empirical data whatsoever to support anything I'm saying. I've just hunted the same general area for the majority of my life, so my observations are just that - observations from hunting.
I agree that it's difficult to attribute migration patterns to localized hunting pressure on a small scale, but Louisiana has SO many duck hunters now. It's mind blowing. I also fully agree that the impact is small, but it's there. Factors 1 and 2 in OP are, IMO, the real "controlling" factors.
That said, I also believe repeated pressure like we get can change the migration pattern on a local level, and as the scale of the pressure increases, the scale of the change increases proportionately. The advent of the "top waters" (
) has put a remarkable amount of pressure on ducks as of late, so the scale of that pressure has increased dramatically. I don't mean specifically limited to hunting, either. I'm also referring to things like like running a surface drive through a pond with 1500 resting ducks just because a hunter can't tell what kind of birds they are, after those birds have been shot up all day. That happening a few times on a small scale won't change much, but like I said, as the scale increases, so does the scale of the change. I have no empirical data whatsoever to support anything I'm saying. I've just hunted the same general area for the majority of my life, so my observations are just that - observations from hunting.
This post was edited on 10/14/16 at 10:27 am
Posted on 10/14/16 at 10:57 am to bluemoons
No, I completely get what you are saying, and it makes perfect sense. A localized factor can grow towards becoming a landscape level factor. Makes sense. I don't know that we will ever run out of ducks down here because of it, but it does make sense that it could change the pattern enough to affect numbers.
I think last winter was a perfect example, however, of the enormous impact weather has. November 2015 was one of the largest counts on record in Louisiana, if I recall correctly, and it was exceptionally cold early.
I don't think it matters how much food is north of us, if it gets covered up by snow early enough, we will have birds. If it doesn't get covered, a large amount of food will definitely hold more birds than in years passed. I believe its the combination of milder winters and more waste grains that has allowed birds to stay further north longer. The hardiest birds, like mallards, have definitely decreased in abundance because of this.
However, Just based on those ideas and our current weather patterns, I don't know that a return to extensive tilling would result in a large increase in birds here. Would more migrate down? It's likely if the food supply runs out. But I don't mallards are stopping further north solely because more food is available. The food is available because of milder winters.
Likewise, if we get a string of exceptionally cold winters with heavy snowfall, we will see more birds because of lack of food available.
It all lies in how you look at the relationship between food availability and weather. To me, the food availability is dependent on the weather, making weather the #1 factor in the migration change.
I think last winter was a perfect example, however, of the enormous impact weather has. November 2015 was one of the largest counts on record in Louisiana, if I recall correctly, and it was exceptionally cold early.
I don't think it matters how much food is north of us, if it gets covered up by snow early enough, we will have birds. If it doesn't get covered, a large amount of food will definitely hold more birds than in years passed. I believe its the combination of milder winters and more waste grains that has allowed birds to stay further north longer. The hardiest birds, like mallards, have definitely decreased in abundance because of this.
However, Just based on those ideas and our current weather patterns, I don't know that a return to extensive tilling would result in a large increase in birds here. Would more migrate down? It's likely if the food supply runs out. But I don't mallards are stopping further north solely because more food is available. The food is available because of milder winters.
Likewise, if we get a string of exceptionally cold winters with heavy snowfall, we will see more birds because of lack of food available.
It all lies in how you look at the relationship between food availability and weather. To me, the food availability is dependent on the weather, making weather the #1 factor in the migration change.
This post was edited on 10/14/16 at 11:00 am
Posted on 10/14/16 at 10:57 am to mach316
quote:
Cold temps and frozen water does not make ducks move like I used to think it did. Ducks seem to stay put until it warms up to where they can leave and feed again.
This. Ducks, really Mallards and Canada Geese to be specific, have evolved over the last 20 or so years. They follow the freeze line and only migrate as far South as they need to get access to food and open water and even if they don't have access to open water, they wait it out. This is evident because we have seen fewer and fewer Mallards making it into LA and AR while MO and IL are now covered up. Then when or if they do get down here if the freeze line dips that far, as soon as it warms up they almost reverse migrate back since alot of hunters see good hunts on South winds as ducks work back North which used to be unheard of.
After years and years of doing this, the migration habit has stuck with Mallards to the point that we only get a trickle of what we used to get. However, we do get one benefit, there seems to be just as many Mallards now as there have ever been. We just don't get to shoot them anymore unless we go to IL or MO.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 11:01 am to Cowboyfan89
quote:
It all lies in how you look at the relationship between food availability and weather. To me, the food availability is dependent on the weather, making weather the #1 factor in the migration change.
I also agree with you here 100%. I think weather is the real controlling factor. The inextricable relationship between weather and food availability make food #2.
Like you just said, a return to heavy tilling would be great, but it makes no difference if the birds up north have no incentive to come down here to begin with.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 11:06 am to MWP
Does anyone have any idea what the difference in waste grain on the ground is now versus before the no-till trend began? Any studies?
Would be an interesting read, I'm sure.
Very interesting to say the least. But it would make sense that a cold-hardy species like the mallard would behave as such. Perhaps the order of factors changes based on the species. Mallards may be driven more by food availability than by weather, whereas teal, gadwall, etc. Are driven more by weather?
Would be an interesting read, I'm sure.
quote:
They follow the freeze line and only migrate as far South as they need to get access to food and open water and even if they don't have access to open water, they wait it out. This is evident because we have seen fewer and fewer Mallards making it into LA and AR while MO and IL are now covered up. Then when or if they do get down here if the freeze line dips that far, as soon as it warms up they almost reverse migrate back
Very interesting to say the least. But it would make sense that a cold-hardy species like the mallard would behave as such. Perhaps the order of factors changes based on the species. Mallards may be driven more by food availability than by weather, whereas teal, gadwall, etc. Are driven more by weather?
Posted on 10/14/16 at 11:17 am to Cowboyfan89
quote:
Does anyone have any idea what the difference in waste grain on the ground is now versus before the no-till trend began? Any studies?
Would be an interesting read, I'm sure.
You have great insight and great questions. A quick google didn't turn anything up, but I didn't really dig. I would be very interested to read a study relative to that as well. I seem to remember reading sometime ago that no-till farming leaves like 4x as much waste grain as is necessary to feed all the ducks in the flyway, but I couldn't find that either.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 11:21 am to bluemoons
quote:
Also, pressure absolutely affects duck migration
i can only speak to the wax lake/atchafalaya bay area. ive hunted it since i was a kid, well over 40 years.
before it blew up as a popular area, the ducks were highly predictable:
1) fly offshore in the morning
2) fly inshore in the evening
we could catch them coming, or going, or both.
now...they spend the day (hunting hours) massed up in gigantic mobs floating out in the bay, not flying. my assumption is they are flying at at night but who knows. bottom line is, where i hunt, pressure has changed their behavior
Posted on 10/14/16 at 11:24 am to Mung
quote:If we get rain this winter, I am going to make a trip to our old honey hole down Poole Rd.
You can't allow noobs to get into a sport brah. They drive up the price of leases, and bogart your public holes. Ruins everything.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 11:28 am to HogIslandDuckman
Food, availability and nutritional value exists in greater ants in areas other than La
Weather is s but of a misnomer. Ducks migrate hundreds and even thoudands of miles at a time. They don't all just stay just in front of freeze lines. They decide to go, they go. But the reason they may be stopping short is food, migration and breeding is incredibly stressful. Having a location with not only grains but alot of insects and invertebrates is very important to meet nutritional needs. Insecticide use, Ag practice, and loss of marsh has diminished the value of La to a duck.
Weather is s but of a misnomer. Ducks migrate hundreds and even thoudands of miles at a time. They don't all just stay just in front of freeze lines. They decide to go, they go. But the reason they may be stopping short is food, migration and breeding is incredibly stressful. Having a location with not only grains but alot of insects and invertebrates is very important to meet nutritional needs. Insecticide use, Ag practice, and loss of marsh has diminished the value of La to a duck.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 11:30 am to bluemoons
One thing that hasn't been said is hot water discharging power plants and factories. This is easily top 3 and maybe 1 or 2. They keep open water, combine that with no-til farming and birds have no reason to leave unless there is a long hard freeze.
My grandfather's club in central Illinois is between the Illinois river and around 10,000 acres of Chicago MSD land (metro sewer division) that does not allow any hunting but is farmed. There is a power plant along the Chicago river. When it gets cold the birds fly between the power plant open water and MSD unhunted no-til land. This has ruined southern Illinois goose hunting almost completely. But there are similar situations like this all up and down th fly-way. Birds have no reason to fly further south when they have food from no-til and open water.
My grandfather's club in central Illinois is between the Illinois river and around 10,000 acres of Chicago MSD land (metro sewer division) that does not allow any hunting but is farmed. There is a power plant along the Chicago river. When it gets cold the birds fly between the power plant open water and MSD unhunted no-til land. This has ruined southern Illinois goose hunting almost completely. But there are similar situations like this all up and down th fly-way. Birds have no reason to fly further south when they have food from no-til and open water.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 11:43 am to bluemoons
I majored in wildlife in college, so I'm always studying up on interesting topics. That is not one I've delved into as deeply as others, but maybe in my spare time I will do alittle more reading. I have some texts that may shed some light on the subject if I dust them off.
That is an interesting number, but with the advances in farming technology, I have a hard time believing the amount left would be more than it was before, although there may be more available since they are not tilling it under. Essentially, less waste on the ground, but none of it is plowed under, making it all available.
Now, there are some harvest practices that purposely leave grain for wildlife. I could definitely see that being a factor as well.
That is an interesting number, but with the advances in farming technology, I have a hard time believing the amount left would be more than it was before, although there may be more available since they are not tilling it under. Essentially, less waste on the ground, but none of it is plowed under, making it all available.
Now, there are some harvest practices that purposely leave grain for wildlife. I could definitely see that being a factor as well.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 12:05 pm to tigerfoot
quote:
Food, availability and nutritional value exists in greater ants in areas other than La
Weather is s but of a misnomer. Ducks migrate hundreds and even thoudands of miles at a time. They don't all just stay just in front of freeze lines. They decide to go, they go. But the reason they may be stopping short is food, migration and breeding is incredibly stressful.
If this were the case, then why do we have any ducks in Louisiana in September, October, November? Why did we have an estimate of over 3 million birds last November when we had multiple cold fronts coming through?
You can call it a misnomer, but it is clearly a driving factor in multiple species. The food does not just become unavailable. It is either eaten, or made unavailable by some mechanism, weather being one.
Nutrition and all of the other stuff you pointed out though, I definitely agree with that. That corn alone is not keeping those birds. Just not enough of what they need in it.
Posted on 10/14/16 at 12:12 pm to Cowboyfan89
I disagree on Biloxi management area getting too much pressure. It's a total of 50,000 acres and I've made many hunts never seeing another hunter. That doesn't help move many birds once they get settled in.
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