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Started By
Message
UPDATE: New Rifle won't group - Need Help
Posted on 7/30/13 at 11:57 pm
Posted on 7/30/13 at 11:57 pm
A while back I posted a thread about a rifle I was having trouble with. Thread located here
First off, thanks to everyone for their input and suggestions. Now the update:
I sent the gun to Remington, and they performed some work. They lapped and chamfered the barrel, and reamed the chamber.
Got the rifle back and it loads + ejects brass much smoother now. After getting it back on paper (by which time the barrel was already fairly warm), I shot the following group:
Ta-Da! Much better!
I then shot this one:
...barrel starting to heat up pretty good now, but still around 1 MOAish. Bottom line: the rifle is grouping much tighter than it was, and it's doing so consistently.
NOTE: the two circles are the same size in the picture above. I've drawn as small of a circle as I can which will fit the center of all 3 shots inside, then made a copy and centered it over the 1" dot for reference.
I try again and shoot the following...
...I didn't realize shots 1&2 were almost in the same hole until walking up to the target. Barrel is blazing hot at this point, but I want Dad to shoot, to see how he does. Dad shoots four of the following, then I shoot the fifth:
By this time the barrel is way too hot to try to fine tune the sighting, plus we were rapidly running out of daylight, so we called it quits.
At this point, I'm satisfied that the equipment is performing as it should, and the remaining tuning needs to be done on my marksmanship
. I am anxious to see how tight I can get the groups out of a cold barrel.
First off, thanks to everyone for their input and suggestions. Now the update:
I sent the gun to Remington, and they performed some work. They lapped and chamfered the barrel, and reamed the chamber.
Got the rifle back and it loads + ejects brass much smoother now. After getting it back on paper (by which time the barrel was already fairly warm), I shot the following group:
Ta-Da! Much better!
I then shot this one:
...barrel starting to heat up pretty good now, but still around 1 MOAish. Bottom line: the rifle is grouping much tighter than it was, and it's doing so consistently.
NOTE: the two circles are the same size in the picture above. I've drawn as small of a circle as I can which will fit the center of all 3 shots inside, then made a copy and centered it over the 1" dot for reference.
I try again and shoot the following...
...I didn't realize shots 1&2 were almost in the same hole until walking up to the target. Barrel is blazing hot at this point, but I want Dad to shoot, to see how he does. Dad shoots four of the following, then I shoot the fifth:
By this time the barrel is way too hot to try to fine tune the sighting, plus we were rapidly running out of daylight, so we called it quits.
At this point, I'm satisfied that the equipment is performing as it should, and the remaining tuning needs to be done on my marksmanship
. I am anxious to see how tight I can get the groups out of a cold barrel. 
3
Posted on 7/31/13 at 12:12 am to CptRusty
Looks good.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 12:51 am to CptRusty
Agreed. That's the shooter.
Couple of tips that may be redundant and if they are, please don't be offended. Shoot off the rest with one hand. And that hand should have the trigger finger on the last pad of the finger trying to make a direct pull back on the trigger and not off to one side. That first target says trigger pull to me. You have to practice that motion to make it consistent. Dry fire. Dry fire. Dry fire.
Now as for your other hand on a bench rest, bunch it up into a fist and use it at the base of your trigger hand to make minute adjustments from BEHIND the trigger but not resting on it. There's more than one way to skin this cat but the point is to make sure this hand is not actually impeding your shot. You've already got a solid rest on the front of the stock hopefully and the barrel isn't touching the stock and is appropriately locked in to the stock at the action and squared and the optic is lined up correctly and squared. If you've done all that, then the problem... is you.
From your pics, I think you can probably get half that sized group with some practice. Maybe more as long as the barrel isn't touching anything, it's bedded correctly, ammo doesn't suck, the scope is secured right, doesn't suck, and you can get better at shooting.
And thus the windmill we all eventually tilt at. I've got rifles that will outshoot me till I die. But that's not going to stop me from trying.
Couple of tips that may be redundant and if they are, please don't be offended. Shoot off the rest with one hand. And that hand should have the trigger finger on the last pad of the finger trying to make a direct pull back on the trigger and not off to one side. That first target says trigger pull to me. You have to practice that motion to make it consistent. Dry fire. Dry fire. Dry fire.
Now as for your other hand on a bench rest, bunch it up into a fist and use it at the base of your trigger hand to make minute adjustments from BEHIND the trigger but not resting on it. There's more than one way to skin this cat but the point is to make sure this hand is not actually impeding your shot. You've already got a solid rest on the front of the stock hopefully and the barrel isn't touching the stock and is appropriately locked in to the stock at the action and squared and the optic is lined up correctly and squared. If you've done all that, then the problem... is you.
From your pics, I think you can probably get half that sized group with some practice. Maybe more as long as the barrel isn't touching anything, it's bedded correctly, ammo doesn't suck, the scope is secured right, doesn't suck, and you can get better at shooting.
And thus the windmill we all eventually tilt at. I've got rifles that will outshoot me till I die. But that's not going to stop me from trying.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 2:53 am to faxis
good post fax
Posted on 7/31/13 at 2:56 am to faxis
I think you misunderstood the thread
Posted on 7/31/13 at 6:14 am to CptRusty
I would also suggest to let the barrel cool and clean it after every shot group. Running a brush through the bore then letting the rifle sit with the action open until it cools will do wonders in making tighter groups. It takes more time but this practice will build confidence in the shooter and the rifle.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 7:07 am to Choirboy
didnt read it all.. just scrolled through and looked at the groups. id bet the guns a remington, get a savage problem solved
Posted on 7/31/13 at 7:37 am to Choirboy
quote:
I would also suggest to let the barrel cool and clean it after every shot group.
My dad actually purchased those keyboard cleaner cans to get some airflow going down the barrel and prevent the heat buildup. Then I told him if you turn the can upside down and push the button that it'll spray out dry ice. It was game over from there.
He bought a pack of 4 of them from Office Depot and went to sight his rifle at the range. This time he was able to cut the time down between groups while keeping his barrel cold. And his groups were great!
Posted on 7/31/13 at 7:40 am to oleyeller
I agree with Faxis great post. I think a lot of the grouping is shooter.
However what caliber and what bullets?
However what caliber and what bullets?
Posted on 7/31/13 at 8:12 am to Da Hammer
Yes, I agree entirely. Previously the gun was all over the place. Now, it's shooting fine and I know my marksmanship is holding the gun back and not the other way around.
It's a 300 Win Mag.
Bullets were mixed through the groups.
The first one was Prvi Partizan 165gr, second group was black hills 190gr. Not sure about the third, and the last was Prvi Partizan 180gr.
ALSO NOTE: The rifle is obviously not zeroed. That wasn't the intent of this range trip, we just got it close enough so that we could shoot groups near a target and see how tight they were.
It's a 300 Win Mag.
Bullets were mixed through the groups.
The first one was Prvi Partizan 165gr, second group was black hills 190gr. Not sure about the third, and the last was Prvi Partizan 180gr.
ALSO NOTE: The rifle is obviously not zeroed. That wasn't the intent of this range trip, we just got it close enough so that we could shoot groups near a target and see how tight they were.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 8:19 am to CptRusty
I wouldn't do that, the trick to accuracy is consistency and practice. Figure out what grain you want to shoot then get 3-4 brands and see what your gun likes the best. You really want to get accurate start handloading.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 8:29 am to CptRusty
quote:
165gr,
Unless a .300 was built to specifically shoot lighter bullets you might not ever get that grain bullet to group. Most are built with a twist in the barrel that favors 180-190 grain bullets.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 8:33 am to GREENHEAD22
quote:
Figure out what grain you want to shoot
Hence switching bullets around and seeing if there was a noticeable difference in group size. Otherwise I would have finished sighting it in after the first group.
I am thinking 180-190 will probably be where it's happiest...but again I want to shoot it cold barrel and work on my technique.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 8:35 am to CptRusty
Sorry I misread, thought you were using different rounds in each group.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 8:43 am to GREENHEAD22
quote:
You really want to get accurate start handloading.
+1
quote:
I am thinking 180-190 will probably be where it's happiest...but again I want to shoot it cold barrel and work on my technique.
My dad's Winchester model 70 LOVES 180gr Barnes TTSX. Although his rounds are handloads, I imagine the factory stuff would be good. His best group was .36MOA.
Also, try the keyboard cleaner stuff I talked about up there^. It will help you get the barrel cooler quicker so you can put more groups downrange.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 8:46 am to bapple
quote:
Also, try the keyboard cleaner stuff I talked about up there^. It will help you get the barrel cooler quicker so you can put more groups downrange.
Yep I'll be bringing a can on my next range trip. The gun will be doing whipits.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 8:55 am to bapple
quote:
keyboard cleaner stuff
Doesnt that let out moisture as well? Not real fimiliar with it but I remember feeling some moistiure when it was inverted or not upright completely. Again, Im asking not stating because Im not sure.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 9:09 am to Langston
quote:
Doesnt that let out moisture as well?
It's compressed CO2, so all it lets out is dry ice.
And dry ice sublimates so there is no moisture left behind. There may be some slight condensation from the surface getting cold, but the can itself does not let out moisture.
Posted on 7/31/13 at 9:11 am to bapple
cool, thanks for the tip and explaining 
Posted on 7/31/13 at 9:24 am to bapple
Maxis great advice.
others not so much.
lets see, what could go wrong with this? 200 + degree barrel, -150 degree air......that is the last thing I would do to a barrel.
You will have better success shooting 3 shot groups. the magnum calibers are to punishing for 5 shoot groups. and the barrel heats up so much.
once you narrow it down to the brand and lot # of ammo you want to shoot, one shot. make adjustment, let barrel cool to ambient temperature, one shot. The first shot in 95% of circumstances is the one that counts.
At the camp I shoot one. the next day I shoot another. when I cover the spot with the first shot I quit shooting my deer rifle. If I want to shoot for fun I bring something else.
lastly, speaking of magnums, you can shoot out a barrel putting too many rounds in row down it. A buddy of mine's dad ruined his 7mm Weatherby magnum shooting a couple of boxes through it in less than 30 minutes.
others not so much.
quote:don't clean that often. me, after season and that's it. and one clearing shot before I sight in for the next season.
I would also suggest to let the barrel cool and clean it after every shot group.
quote:
My dad actually purchased those keyboard cleaner cans to get some airflow going down the barrel and prevent the heat buildup. Then I told him if you turn the can upside down and push the button that it'll spray out dry ice. It was game over from there.
lets see, what could go wrong with this? 200 + degree barrel, -150 degree air......that is the last thing I would do to a barrel.
You will have better success shooting 3 shot groups. the magnum calibers are to punishing for 5 shoot groups. and the barrel heats up so much.
once you narrow it down to the brand and lot # of ammo you want to shoot, one shot. make adjustment, let barrel cool to ambient temperature, one shot. The first shot in 95% of circumstances is the one that counts.
At the camp I shoot one. the next day I shoot another. when I cover the spot with the first shot I quit shooting my deer rifle. If I want to shoot for fun I bring something else.
lastly, speaking of magnums, you can shoot out a barrel putting too many rounds in row down it. A buddy of mine's dad ruined his 7mm Weatherby magnum shooting a couple of boxes through it in less than 30 minutes.
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