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Started By
Message
New Rifle won't group - Need Help
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:27 pm
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:27 pm
As the title says, I have recently purchased a Remington 700 sendero in .300 win mag. Sitting on top is a U.S. Optics LR-17, mounted in US Optics medium height rings on a LaRue Tactical 20 MOA picatinny rail.
I am having severe trouble sighting it in. The target below is at 100 yards.
After 1st shot adjusted windage and elevation.
After 2nd shot adjusted 1 click windage
After 3rd shot adjusted 1 more click windage
The one in the 1 ring I believe was the 5th shot.
Looking OKish so far, so we moved to 200 because that's where the zero needs to be anyway...
I shot this "group":
Dad shot this one:
We decided to stop wasting ammo and start troubleshooting, but being hardheaded I finished the box and shot this :
What say the OB? I don't have a lot of experience with bolt action rifles, so I'm not sure where to start troubleshooting. I figure it can be one of a few things:
1) Scope has a loose track or is otherwise sensitive to recoil for some reason.
2) Scope mounting is loose (triple checked this, don't think it's the case)
3) Something is up with the rifle. A google search netted me something about the action screws, but this gun is brand new. Should all be factory torqued.
4) Marksmanship, although I don't think this is the issue. My Dad and I are both decent shots and we're shooting from a bench rest.
Any suggestions would be welcome. Oh...and...obligatory gun pr0n:
I am having severe trouble sighting it in. The target below is at 100 yards.
After 1st shot adjusted windage and elevation.
After 2nd shot adjusted 1 click windage
After 3rd shot adjusted 1 more click windage
The one in the 1 ring I believe was the 5th shot.
Looking OKish so far, so we moved to 200 because that's where the zero needs to be anyway...
I shot this "group":
Dad shot this one:
We decided to stop wasting ammo and start troubleshooting, but being hardheaded I finished the box and shot this :
What say the OB? I don't have a lot of experience with bolt action rifles, so I'm not sure where to start troubleshooting. I figure it can be one of a few things:
1) Scope has a loose track or is otherwise sensitive to recoil for some reason.
2) Scope mounting is loose (triple checked this, don't think it's the case)
3) Something is up with the rifle. A google search netted me something about the action screws, but this gun is brand new. Should all be factory torqued.
4) Marksmanship, although I don't think this is the issue. My Dad and I are both decent shots and we're shooting from a bench rest.
Any suggestions would be welcome. Oh...and...obligatory gun pr0n:
10
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:29 pm to CptRusty
It may and by may i mean more than likely have something to do with you adjusting after every shot. Shoot 3-5 times, then adjust.
This post was edited on 6/19/13 at 11:30 pm
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:30 pm to JAB528
there were no adjustments once we moved to 200
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:31 pm to CptRusty
What ammo you using?
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:36 pm to CptRusty
are you shooting reloads?
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:38 pm to Carson123987
no, factory hornady ammo. See above
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:38 pm to CptRusty
You need to get a couple of types of ammo and try them out. See if any shoot better....
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:41 pm to CptRusty
That's a decent ammo, however, your gun just may not like it. I'd try some different kinds and see if you can get a group using those.
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:42 pm to wickowick
quote:
You need to get a couple of types of ammo and try them out. See if any shoot better....
Definitely will try this, although today (the pics above) was the second outing for this gun. First outing we were shooting hornady GMX and it was doing the same thing.
And no I'm not particular to Hornady, that just happens to be what Buck Fin N' Feathers had in stock. I picked up some federal for it today as well so I'll be shooting that next time out.
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:46 pm to CptRusty
Has the gun's barrel ever been cleaned?
I know this sounds crazy. A friend if mine had similar issues with a new rifle out the box. Couldn't get it to shoot good groups.
Someone told him to clean the gun and barrel. He did so and the next go round the rifle shot beautiful groups.
Sounded kind of weird to me but just thought I would pass it along.
I know this sounds crazy. A friend if mine had similar issues with a new rifle out the box. Couldn't get it to shoot good groups.
Someone told him to clean the gun and barrel. He did so and the next go round the rifle shot beautiful groups.
Sounded kind of weird to me but just thought I would pass it along.
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:49 pm to CptRusty
Get rid of the rail. That's an extra bunch of problems you don't need.
Not familiar with the scope and mounts so those would be suspect to me simply for that fact alone.
Seriously though, there's no reason at all to put a rail on a rifle like that. It's begging for problems.
Also, make sure that stock is ACTUALLY floated. Run a dollar bill under the barrel and see if it runs freely all the way back. If it's not, that's got something to do with it.
I'd want to know that first. But next thing I would do would be get rid of that rail and mount directly to the action.
Not familiar with the scope and mounts so those would be suspect to me simply for that fact alone.
Seriously though, there's no reason at all to put a rail on a rifle like that. It's begging for problems.
Also, make sure that stock is ACTUALLY floated. Run a dollar bill under the barrel and see if it runs freely all the way back. If it's not, that's got something to do with it.
I'd want to know that first. But next thing I would do would be get rid of that rail and mount directly to the action.
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:50 pm to Who Me
quote:
Has the gun's barrel ever been cleaned?
Yep. That's what we dismissed it as on the first outing.
Took it home, cleaned it thoroughly and brought it back out today, same results
Posted on 6/19/13 at 11:51 pm to CptRusty
It could be something loose. I am not familiar with this scope and the quality of it.
I sight in all my rifles at 50 yards with scope cranked up, because I found that my eye sight was affecting me. When the rifle fired at long range I could not tell if I was dead on or not. And I like perfection on mine. When I light in at close range I sight in from 1 inch low to 1 inch high depending on the rifle. Then I shoot at long range when I am finished and if I have to adjust I do it at close range and repeat process.
I also find leupold are not finiky aboul holding the exact line of sight each time.
Good luck
I sight in all my rifles at 50 yards with scope cranked up, because I found that my eye sight was affecting me. When the rifle fired at long range I could not tell if I was dead on or not. And I like perfection on mine. When I light in at close range I sight in from 1 inch low to 1 inch high depending on the rifle. Then I shoot at long range when I am finished and if I have to adjust I do it at close range and repeat process.
I also find leupold are not finiky aboul holding the exact line of sight each time.
Good luckPosted on 6/19/13 at 11:57 pm to faxis
quote:
Get rid of the rail. That's an extra bunch of problems you don't need.
Fair enough. One thing I'm going to do is swap the scope out with one from another rifle I've got, so I'll try mounting it to the rail, and removing the rail as well.
quote:
Also, make sure that stock is ACTUALLY floated. Run a dollar bill under the barrel and see if it runs freely all the way back.
Done and it does.
Posted on 6/20/13 at 12:02 am to ISmellMischief
quote:
It could be something loose. I am not familiar with this scope and the quality of it.
USO makes top quality scopes. Think Schmidt & Bender or Nightforce. That said, these are custom hand made items and are subject to human imperfection just like anything else. I'll be contacting USO and seeing what they have to say.
Posted on 6/20/13 at 12:02 am to CptRusty
Well if the price means anything, the scope should be OK.
I don't understand why you have it on a picatiny rail though. With a rifle like that, that's asking for problems. That rifle should shoot half inch groups with that ammo with even a crappy scope at a hundred.
Now heres the thing though, If this is the first time shooting, you need to just run about fifty rounds though it and not worry about groups much. Then clean it, run another twenty through it and see where you are. They should be tighter.
As off as you are, my bet is it's the rail. Also, make sure you're using a torque screwdriver on the screws and you torque them in the right sequence.
I'm just not familiar enough with your optics and mounts to have a lot of confidence but if they're getting that kind of money for them, they're probably ok. Lose the rail. Torque correctly. Get your parallax right. Take your time. And see what happens. It's almost certainly not the gun unless there's some kind of trash pressing on the barrel.
I don't understand why you have it on a picatiny rail though. With a rifle like that, that's asking for problems. That rifle should shoot half inch groups with that ammo with even a crappy scope at a hundred.
Now heres the thing though, If this is the first time shooting, you need to just run about fifty rounds though it and not worry about groups much. Then clean it, run another twenty through it and see where you are. They should be tighter.
As off as you are, my bet is it's the rail. Also, make sure you're using a torque screwdriver on the screws and you torque them in the right sequence.
I'm just not familiar enough with your optics and mounts to have a lot of confidence but if they're getting that kind of money for them, they're probably ok. Lose the rail. Torque correctly. Get your parallax right. Take your time. And see what happens. It's almost certainly not the gun unless there's some kind of trash pressing on the barrel.
Posted on 6/20/13 at 12:08 am to faxis
quote:
I don't understand why you have it on a picatiny rail though
The reason is that the rail is canted forward 20 MOA...and the reason for that is so that it gives excess elevation adjustment, and the reason for that is that I intend to shoot this rifle out to 1000 yards and beyond, so having as much elevation travel (for bullet drop correction) becomes necessary. Truthfully the scope probably has enough, at least for 1000, but another 20 MOA doesn't hurt....well...unless the damn rail is preventing the rifle from grouping
This post was edited on 6/20/13 at 12:10 am
Posted on 6/20/13 at 12:10 am to CptRusty
Yeah. Lose the rail.
It's the problem. I'd almost bet money on it.
You don't need that to shoot thousand yards. Trust me. It's an impediment to it.
It's the problem. I'd almost bet money on it.
You don't need that to shoot thousand yards. Trust me. It's an impediment to it.
Posted on 6/20/13 at 12:21 am to faxis
With rifles like you're trying to build, less is more.
Long range rifles are about repeatable harmonics. Every piece you put between the optics and the rifle, or the stock and the rifle, or the barrel, or anywhere else you add crap to it, changes the harmonics. What you are looking for is ideally a bell that you hit with exactly the same force every trigger pull that sings the same exact song every time. Think about it like that and you'll be a long ways closer to your long range rifle.
A rail is just begging for problems. It adds a whole new level of potential problems. Sendero is more a 500 yard rifle though. It's a great platform to start with though and should be able to ring gongs at a 1000 all day long, but to be honest, if you're shooting factory loads, it's never going to be what you want it to be. You want to do it consistently, you have to load them yourself from selected brass that's chosen for your rifle after picking through them by shooting them.
Reloading is half the battle. The guys that do this best do it at the bench with about 20 pieces of brass. It's that fricking precise.
Long range rifles are about repeatable harmonics. Every piece you put between the optics and the rifle, or the stock and the rifle, or the barrel, or anywhere else you add crap to it, changes the harmonics. What you are looking for is ideally a bell that you hit with exactly the same force every trigger pull that sings the same exact song every time. Think about it like that and you'll be a long ways closer to your long range rifle.
A rail is just begging for problems. It adds a whole new level of potential problems. Sendero is more a 500 yard rifle though. It's a great platform to start with though and should be able to ring gongs at a 1000 all day long, but to be honest, if you're shooting factory loads, it's never going to be what you want it to be. You want to do it consistently, you have to load them yourself from selected brass that's chosen for your rifle after picking through them by shooting them.
Reloading is half the battle. The guys that do this best do it at the bench with about 20 pieces of brass. It's that fricking precise.
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