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Message
Why free college is evil in disguise
Posted on 8/1/16 at 3:52 pm
Posted on 8/1/16 at 3:52 pm
Sorry for the rant, but I wanted to give my opinion on this.
It can be argued that free college is prevalent in Germany and Finland. However, nobody sees the differences we have compared to them.
These countries are more homogeneous in population, sharing a similar culture overall. These countries are also reputed for having a more rigorous high school system. I have read that Germany has a tracking system that assesses students in their last years of school. If you are an educator please tell me if our current system is anywhere near the difficulty of these other nations.
If only your best are going to school, then if course free education pays itself back. A bunch of people getting education with little economic value does not help the country as a whole. Finland heavily encourages fields that have work.
As for educators, every old hat can not be a teacher in these countries. You have to pass multiple exams and in most cases have advanced degrees.
Also, what about degree value, will a degree have the same worth in a free tuition world as it does with a pay system.
Free college = more people with degrees
More people with degree = less value per degree
Less value per degree = increase of degreed people working jobs that don't require the degree.
But more jobs require a degree volod. That is only because we have TOO MANY in the first place.
TLDR, free college is Perpetuating artificial value. GOVT wants to flood the market with degrees, lower their value even more, and make MORE people dependent on them.
It can be argued that free college is prevalent in Germany and Finland. However, nobody sees the differences we have compared to them.
These countries are more homogeneous in population, sharing a similar culture overall. These countries are also reputed for having a more rigorous high school system. I have read that Germany has a tracking system that assesses students in their last years of school. If you are an educator please tell me if our current system is anywhere near the difficulty of these other nations.
If only your best are going to school, then if course free education pays itself back. A bunch of people getting education with little economic value does not help the country as a whole. Finland heavily encourages fields that have work.
As for educators, every old hat can not be a teacher in these countries. You have to pass multiple exams and in most cases have advanced degrees.
Also, what about degree value, will a degree have the same worth in a free tuition world as it does with a pay system.
Free college = more people with degrees
More people with degree = less value per degree
Less value per degree = increase of degreed people working jobs that don't require the degree.
But more jobs require a degree volod. That is only because we have TOO MANY in the first place.
TLDR, free college is Perpetuating artificial value. GOVT wants to flood the market with degrees, lower their value even more, and make MORE people dependent on them.
This post was edited on 8/1/16 at 4:03 pm
31
Posted on 8/1/16 at 3:53 pm to volod
Didn't read but volod = auto downvote
Posted on 8/1/16 at 3:54 pm to volod
Tldr; but your southern education is flooding the market
Posted on 8/1/16 at 3:54 pm to volod
You don't seem like the same poster recently, despite the education-focused topic schtick. It's almost like you were trolling us this whole time
Posted on 8/1/16 at 3:59 pm to volod
I agree. I'm for free college for students of high ability. But how do you measure high ability? Tests? Well tests are biased against poor people. And we need to start having real testing in this country. The ACT is a frickin' joke. Multiple choice tests are an incredibly poor way to measure ability. I taught a class as a graduate student and kids that were getting A's on multiple choice tests could barely write coherently.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:00 pm to volod
quote:
I have read that Germany has a tracking system that assesses students in their last year's of school
You would have been sent to learn a trade in Germany.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:01 pm to volod
The left has this obsession with giving people things that really aren't the things people need.
For example, they wanted to give everyone health insurance. But the people really don't need "health insurance", what they need is access to affordable healthcare. If that's something you think is needed, there are many ways to do that... giving "free" health insurance doesn't really accomplish that though.
Same with this college education thing. People don't need "degrees", they need jobs that will allow them to provide a decent living for their families and themselves.
I'd have no problem giving everyone a free education post-high school, however, that can't be four year education for everyone. That's insane.
Go to a sliding scale. If your academics are above a certain level, you get to attend a four year college for free. If they are between that level and a lower level, you get to attend a two year college for free. If they are below the lower level, you get to attend a trade school one year program for free.
We need less history majors and more people with trade skills in mechanics and HVAC, for example. The only way we fix our issues are to design our post-high school systems accordingly.
For example, they wanted to give everyone health insurance. But the people really don't need "health insurance", what they need is access to affordable healthcare. If that's something you think is needed, there are many ways to do that... giving "free" health insurance doesn't really accomplish that though.
Same with this college education thing. People don't need "degrees", they need jobs that will allow them to provide a decent living for their families and themselves.
I'd have no problem giving everyone a free education post-high school, however, that can't be four year education for everyone. That's insane.
Go to a sliding scale. If your academics are above a certain level, you get to attend a four year college for free. If they are between that level and a lower level, you get to attend a two year college for free. If they are below the lower level, you get to attend a trade school one year program for free.
We need less history majors and more people with trade skills in mechanics and HVAC, for example. The only way we fix our issues are to design our post-high school systems accordingly.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:01 pm to volod
You make some very good points. I was on an advisory committee in college and as such, got to know some of the professors on a personal level.
One of the overwhelming themes that several of the Indian professors harped on, were that in other companies, final and exit exams were not administered by or at the school that the student was enrolled in. Instead of the teacher compiling their own final exam, in which they can control difficulty, all students are given a standard uniform test. It ensures the academic integrity from the student and the teacher.
Additionally, they all seem to have huge issues with Americans not taking personal responsibility, and often criticized the American culture of suing other people for things that are their own fault.
One of the overwhelming themes that several of the Indian professors harped on, were that in other companies, final and exit exams were not administered by or at the school that the student was enrolled in. Instead of the teacher compiling their own final exam, in which they can control difficulty, all students are given a standard uniform test. It ensures the academic integrity from the student and the teacher.
Additionally, they all seem to have huge issues with Americans not taking personal responsibility, and often criticized the American culture of suing other people for things that are their own fault.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:02 pm to TheWalrus
quote:
And we need to start having real testing in this country. The ACT is a frickin' joke. Multiple choice tests are an incredibly poor way to measure ability.
If you do well on the ACT or SAT, you're intelligent. You can argue it may miss some people - the bad test takers
- but anyone it catches is intelligent. Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:06 pm to volod
quote:
volod
Usually terrible, but today you hit it.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:08 pm to volod
It's because it is free...
And anyone with a pulse and a brain knows that NOTHING is free.
And anyone with a pulse and a brain knows that NOTHING is free.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:11 pm to volod
The "Free College" everyone talks about will never see the light of day. After the politicians get done it "might" be 2 year degrees at a community college and that's it. How special would a college degree be if everyone had one? It would be just a continuation of high school.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:11 pm to volod
quote:
increase of degreed people working jobs that don't require the degree.
I don't see a problem with a more educated population working with degrees that were paid for by tax reform. Maybe if our politicians didn't spend 12k on a toilet seat we could use the funds more appropriately. No need to raise the existing taxes, we need someone financially responsible.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:12 pm to volod
30k to 60k per year for college is ridiculous. Universities and colleges have grossly exaggerated the values of their degrees in the working world.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:13 pm to volod
I have a few friends in Europe and Scandinavia.
They say the point that America overlooks is that in those European nations you mention that being a teacher is very highly regarded. Many of their best and brightest become educators.
Whereas here in the States the educators are often middle of the road to low performers academically. So just how far can they take our children?
They argue we can offer free college until we are broke as a nation and it will accomplish little. The problem starts in Grade School.
They say the point that America overlooks is that in those European nations you mention that being a teacher is very highly regarded. Many of their best and brightest become educators.
Whereas here in the States the educators are often middle of the road to low performers academically. So just how far can they take our children?
They argue we can offer free college until we are broke as a nation and it will accomplish little. The problem starts in Grade School.
This post was edited on 8/1/16 at 4:16 pm
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:19 pm to wiltznucs
quote:
They say the point that America overlooks is that in those European nations you mention that being a teacher is very highly regarded. Many of their best and brightest become educators.
How is the pay for teachers in those countries, compared to other professions?
We get the middle of the road to low performers here because that is what we pay for.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:21 pm to volod
The whole "everybody should have a college education" is whats wrong. Out of the entire college student body Id say 75% shouldnt even be there.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:21 pm to volod
Prisoners can take college classes for free but children of the working poor are forced to take out oppressive student loans.
Government is here to keep people shackled.
Government is here to keep people shackled.
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:26 pm to volod
Free education for highly testing people? Sure. Free education in areas that there is a need? Sure. Free education as a way for dipshits to go party and avoid real life? frick all that
Posted on 8/1/16 at 4:31 pm to slackster
quote:
You would have been sent to learn a trade in Germany.
Actually this is so true in most parts of germany. By 10th grade, they know if they're going the vo tech route or university route.
votech isn't looked lesser upon and is actually viewed as something necessary and their skills are appreciated.
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