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Universal income discussion
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:43 am
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:43 am
Note: I added 7 and 8.
(The following comments are from an academic standpoint. I don't support Universal Income)
The problem with UI, and there are lots, is that our society is weak and won't let people fail (or die).
For UI to work, it has to:
1. Be universal. Every adult has to get the same amount. It can't vary by income, geography or age.
2. It has to replace ALL other forms of government handouts and entitlements: No more social security, welfare, foodstamps, etc.
3. It has to be completely cold and brutal: "This is what you get, period." It won't work if we aren't willing to let people starve in the ditch. Sure, there would still be a place for charity, churches, etc. But the government cannot allow people to waste their UI, and then swoop in and give them more.
4. It has to include health insurance. (The insurance should be very basic. Private "adder" insurance would still be available) I have seen some models where every adult gets a set amount, say $25,000 per year, with $5,000 of that dedicated to health insurance, with a net of $20,000.
5. There can be no laws against making additional money and any additional money earned would not affect your UI.
6. The UI can't be garnished, inherited, mortgaged, liened, promised or sold.
7. Strict citizenship requirements. Perhaps even a time-period after citizenship before you can get it. This would solve some immigration issues, because there would be no more entitlements besides UI, which immigrants (legal or illegal) would not quality for.
8. If you go to prison, your UI goes to the entity that is imprisoning you to pay for your incarceration. No one else can get your UI except you.
None of these things would be agreeable to the people pushing for UI, so it will never happen - and if it happens, it will be a massive failure. (it would probably be a massive failure, even with these rules, but at least it would have a chance)
If you read about UI, most of the people talking about it leave out the U for Universal. It's just another entitlement.
(The following comments are from an academic standpoint. I don't support Universal Income)
The problem with UI, and there are lots, is that our society is weak and won't let people fail (or die).
For UI to work, it has to:
1. Be universal. Every adult has to get the same amount. It can't vary by income, geography or age.
2. It has to replace ALL other forms of government handouts and entitlements: No more social security, welfare, foodstamps, etc.
3. It has to be completely cold and brutal: "This is what you get, period." It won't work if we aren't willing to let people starve in the ditch. Sure, there would still be a place for charity, churches, etc. But the government cannot allow people to waste their UI, and then swoop in and give them more.
4. It has to include health insurance. (The insurance should be very basic. Private "adder" insurance would still be available) I have seen some models where every adult gets a set amount, say $25,000 per year, with $5,000 of that dedicated to health insurance, with a net of $20,000.
5. There can be no laws against making additional money and any additional money earned would not affect your UI.
6. The UI can't be garnished, inherited, mortgaged, liened, promised or sold.
7. Strict citizenship requirements. Perhaps even a time-period after citizenship before you can get it. This would solve some immigration issues, because there would be no more entitlements besides UI, which immigrants (legal or illegal) would not quality for.
8. If you go to prison, your UI goes to the entity that is imprisoning you to pay for your incarceration. No one else can get your UI except you.
None of these things would be agreeable to the people pushing for UI, so it will never happen - and if it happens, it will be a massive failure. (it would probably be a massive failure, even with these rules, but at least it would have a chance)
If you read about UI, most of the people talking about it leave out the U for Universal. It's just another entitlement.
This post was edited on 5/30/23 at 10:02 am
41
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:45 am to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
If you read about UI, most of the people talking about it leave out the U for Universal. It's just another entitlement.
there's a country in Europe that does this, or at least did it up to not so long ago
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:45 am to Bjorn Cyborg
Better develop a taste for insects...
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:45 am to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
5. There can be no laws against making additional money and any additional money earned would not affect your UI.
This right here puts us back to exactly where we are now. Only our money is even more worthless.
Edit: The only way this would ever work would be if there was an absolute price freeze on everything - which is ludicrous.
This post was edited on 5/30/23 at 9:48 am
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:45 am to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:gets my vote
2. It has to replace ALL other forms of government handouts and entitlements: No more social security, welfare, foodstamps, etc.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:46 am to wileyjones
quote:
social security
ain't a hand out
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:46 am to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
4. It has to include health insurance. (The insurance should be very basic. Private "adder" insurance would still be available) I have seen some models where every adult gets a set amount, say $25,000 per year, with $5,000 of that dedicated to health insurance, with a net of $20,000.
Or we could just move to a single-payer system.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:48 am to Bjorn Cyborg
So, communism?
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:48 am to 777Tiger
quote:
ain't a hand out
True, old people paid in.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:49 am to 777Tiger
quote:
ain't a hand out
But it is a Ponzi scheme
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:49 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
So, communism?
Imagine
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:50 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
Or we could just move to a single-payer system.
If we’re at a point where we really do need UBI, then no one should get free healthcare. It means we’re overpopulated and our economy, social order can’t support this many people. Letting the poor and uneducated die off is the only logical thing to do.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:50 am to Bjorn Cyborg
Agreed. I’m not in favor of this stuff either at this time. We’re simply not ready for such a drastic change.
That said, at some point in the future this WILL be necessary as automation and AI remove the need to have so much human labor. And I don’t think it could ever be just a gift of cash. It would need to come in the form of actual food/clothing/shelter. The basics of survival.
That said, at some point in the future this WILL be necessary as automation and AI remove the need to have so much human labor. And I don’t think it could ever be just a gift of cash. It would need to come in the form of actual food/clothing/shelter. The basics of survival.
This post was edited on 5/30/23 at 9:54 am
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:51 am to Bjorn Cyborg
Doesn't this basically make whatever the UBI is the new zero?
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:51 am to Bjorn Cyborg
In theory I don't object to UI or single payer
I do object to it in a country of 350m people. Zero reason for my family and misanthropes on the West Coast to be pooling resources for common programs.
I do object to it in a country of 350m people. Zero reason for my family and misanthropes on the West Coast to be pooling resources for common programs.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:51 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
Or we could just move to a single-payer system.
Sounds great, just put the government in charge of all things healthcare related
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:52 am to chryso
quote:
True, old people paid in.
I'm young and have paid my arse off into it even though I'll likely never see a nickel of it back
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:53 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
So, communism?
No. You would still be able to work and make as much money as you want. This would just offer a baseline minimum income for people.
As I said, I'm not for this. But you can argue that we basically already have it, except it only goes to the non-workers.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:53 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
I'm young and have paid my arse off into it even though I'll likely never see a nickel of it back
I've been hearing that line of crap since I was in grade school, I'm now old enough to collect and it's still here, it ain't going anywhere any time soon baw
Posted on 5/30/23 at 9:54 am to Bjorn Cyborg
There are some people that, no matter how much money you give them, will spend every last cent on nothing of substance
These people will continue living in poverty while they waste the handout that we pay taxes to support
UBI will do nothing but keep the poor where they are while our economy sucks
These people will continue living in poverty while they waste the handout that we pay taxes to support
UBI will do nothing but keep the poor where they are while our economy sucks
This post was edited on 5/30/23 at 9:55 am
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