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Started By
Message
Military thread - let's talk Fougasse, land torpedoes, line mines and IED's
Posted on 3/31/15 at 3:56 pm
Posted on 3/31/15 at 3:56 pm
These have a long history, from the Chinese opposing the Mongols, to the Confederates against the Union forces, to the Russians in the Crimea to the Vietnamese to groups we've been fighting in Iraq.
In most cases it seems like these devices are employed by the side fighting against a more numerous or better equipped and armed opponent.
A question for discussion - have these devices ever tipped the scale of a conflict? Outside of maybe Vietnam, has the side that predominately used them even won many of the conflicts?
In most cases it seems like these devices are employed by the side fighting against a more numerous or better equipped and armed opponent.
A question for discussion - have these devices ever tipped the scale of a conflict? Outside of maybe Vietnam, has the side that predominately used them even won many of the conflicts?
6
Posted on 3/31/15 at 4:07 pm to Methuselah
"Operation Starvation," the B29 aerial minelaying campaign against Japan (pdf file) LINK
Posted on 3/31/15 at 4:09 pm to Methuselah
quote:
A question for discussion - have these devices ever tipped the scale of a conflict? Outside of maybe Vietnam, has the side that predominately used them even won many of the conflicts?
First, we won the Vietnam war. It ended in 1973 with the Paris Peace Accords. Two years later the North invaded the South after the Soviets had rebuilt the NVA while liberals in Congress stopped the US from supporting it's ally in South Vietnam, this despite the US being obligated by treaty to help South Vietnam. Thus, due to being abandoned by the US (thanks to liberal Democrats in congress), the South fell to the North.
As to your original question, the use of landmines (designed or improvised) has never been the deciding factor in a war.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 4:17 pm to Methuselah
Air support, mechanized units and Naval superiority win wars. Oh, or Nukes. We made the japs quit.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 4:22 pm to Darth_Vader
most upvotes ever for a Darth post. 
Honestly Vietnam like Iraq is a war we never should of been in.
But that's another thread for another day.
Honestly Vietnam like Iraq is a war we never should of been in.
But that's another thread for another day.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 4:24 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
"Operation Starvation," the B29 aerial minelaying campaign against Japan (pdf file) LINK
If you want to talk blockade of Japan, this more than anything is what gave it real teeth....
LINK
Posted on 3/31/15 at 4:27 pm to Napoleon
quote:
most upvotes ever for a Darth post.
I have no idea why people give him shite. I appreciate a poster who is honest and no bullshite
Posted on 3/31/15 at 4:35 pm to Broke
quote:
I have no idea why people give him shite. I appreciate a poster who is honest and no bullshite
Well thanks.
And don't worry about the kids who like to try to start shite with me. They're just brave little message board baddasses.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 4:55 pm to Darth_Vader
North Vietnam won against the South, and then held on for an even more bloody draw against China. Draw in this case being defined as the Chinese did not take over the country. They didn't need landmines to do it either, they just needed to not screw up.
The thing is... while we didn't use IEDs we most certainly used land mines out the ying yang in Vietnam.
Hell we still use them today out the wazoo in Korea. Mines have the benefit of just sitting there waiting to go off. A lot of the minefields we ran into in Vietnam were actually laid way before we got there by the Japanese or French.
It is a horrible weapon of war yes, but it won't go away anytime soon. The reason so many losing sides used landmines is that they tend to be a defensive weapon. The US has tended to be on the offensive for a good long while.
The thing is... while we didn't use IEDs we most certainly used land mines out the ying yang in Vietnam.
Hell we still use them today out the wazoo in Korea. Mines have the benefit of just sitting there waiting to go off. A lot of the minefields we ran into in Vietnam were actually laid way before we got there by the Japanese or French.
It is a horrible weapon of war yes, but it won't go away anytime soon. The reason so many losing sides used landmines is that they tend to be a defensive weapon. The US has tended to be on the offensive for a good long while.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 7:00 pm to Methuselah
Land mines seem to be helping keep Lil' Kim and crew on the other side of the DMZ.
This post was edited on 3/31/15 at 7:03 pm
Posted on 3/31/15 at 7:16 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
First, we won the Vietnam war. It ended in 1973 with the Paris Peace Accords. Two years later the North invaded the South after the Soviets had rebuilt the NVA while liberals in Congress stopped the US from supporting it's ally in South Vietnam, this despite the US being obligated by treaty to help South Vietnam. Thus, due to being abandoned by the US (thanks to liberal Democrats in congress), the South fell to the North.
This is the Truth.
The USA was obligated by treaty to militarily intervene to defend South Vietnam when North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam with conventional forces after the Paris Peace Accords.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 7:19 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
First, we won the Vietnam war.
Oh yeah? What did we win?
Posted on 3/31/15 at 7:39 pm to Methuselah
Mines, IEDs ect didn't "win" the Vietnam war....the American's having no strategy other than going out looking for a fight day in and day out won the war for the North Vietnamese
Edit:
Yes I understand the NVA didn't defeat the U.S. but we did not succeed in our mission of driving them out of the south so we didn't achieve our objective either.
Edit:
Yes I understand the NVA didn't defeat the U.S. but we did not succeed in our mission of driving them out of the south so we didn't achieve our objective either.
This post was edited on 3/31/15 at 7:45 pm
Posted on 3/31/15 at 8:12 pm to theGarnetWay
quote:
Oh yeah? What did we win?
We won an free and independent South Vietnam in January 1973. Then in January 1975 North Vietnam launches a full scale invasion, TWO YEARS AFTER THE END OF THE VIETNAM WAR. By March 30, 1975, abandoned by it's treaty ally the United States of America, South Vietnam falls....
quote:
PARIS PEACE ACCORDS
13 Jun 73
A new accord aimed at strengthening the January 27 cease-fire agreement in South Vietnam is signed in Paris by the United States, North Vietnam, South Vietnam and the National Liberation Front.
U.S. CONGRESS UNDERCUTS PEACE
1 Jul 73
U.S. Congress votes to end all bombing in Cambodia after August 15.
31 Dec 73
Size of U.S. military contingent in Vietnam is limited to 50. No Free World military personel remain in South Vietnam.
9 Aug 74
Richard Nixon resigns as President of the United States. Vice President Gerald Ford becomes President.
20 Aug 74
U.S. Congress cuts aid to South Vietnam from $1 billion to $700 million.
NVA TESTS THE WATER
13 Dec 74-
6 Jan 75
North Vietnamese attack South Vietnamese positions in Phuoc Long Province, II Corps. Phuoc Long Province falls to North Vietnamese attack.
NORTH VIETNAM INVADES THE SOUTH
8 Jan 75
North Vietnamese Politburo orders major People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN) offensive to "liberate" South Vietnam by NVA cross-border invasion. NVA general staff plan for the invasion of South Vietnam by 20 divisions. The Soviet-supplied North Vietnamese Army is the fifth largest in the world. It anticipates a two year struggle for victory, but Saigon falls in 55 days.
14 Jan 75
Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger testifies to Congress that the U.S. is not living up to its earlier promise to South Vietnam's President Thieu of "severe retaliatory action" in the event North Vietnam violated the Paris peace treaty.
21 Jan 75
President Ford tells a press conference that the U.S. is unwilling to re-enter the war.
5 Feb 75
NVA General Van Tien Dung crosses into South Vietnam to take command of the final offensive.
9 Mar 75
The Battle of An Loc begins.
10 Mar 75
25,000 NVA attack Ban Me Thuot, II Corps, which falls to NVA attack the next day half of the 4,000 South Vietnamese soldiers defending it surrender or desert. .
14 Mar 75
President Nguyen Van Thieu decides to abandon the Highlands region and two northern provinces and.orders withdrawal of ARVN forces. Instead of an orderlywithdrawal, this turns into a general retreat, with masses of military and civilians fleeing, clogging roads and creating chaos. The NVA shell the retreat which becomes known as "the convoy of tears."
18 Mar 75
NVA leaders meet and decide to accelerate their offensive to achieve total victory before May 1.
19 Mar 75
Quang Tri Province, I Coprs, falls to NVA attack.
24 Mar 75
Tam Ky falls to the NVA.
26 Mar 75
City of Hue falls to NVA attack after a three-day seige.
26 Mar 75
Chu Lai is evacuated.
28 May 75
35,000 NVA prepare to attack Danang and artillery fire falls on the city.
30 Mar 75
100,000 South Vietnamese soldiers surrender after being abandoned by their commanding officers. Danang falls.
1 Apr 75
Cities of Qui Nhon, Tuy Hoa and Nha Trang are abandoned by the South Vietnamese, yielding entire northern half of South Vietnam to the North Vietnamese.
1 Apr 75
Cambodian President Lon Nol abdicates. U.S. Navy Operation Eagle Pull commences to evacuate U.S. embassy staff from Phnom Penh.
8 Apr 73-
20 Apr 73
Battle of Xuan Loc rages 38 km north of Saigon, as ARVN 18th Infantry Division attempts to hold off attack by three NVA divisions (40,000 men). The overstretched NVA meet stiff resistence.
12 Apr 75
South Vietnamese President Nguyen Van Thieu resigns.
14 Apr 75
American airlift of homeless children to the United States from South Vietnam ends. A total of about 14,000 arrived.
17 Apr 75
Cambodia falls as Khmer Rouge troops capture Phnom Penh and government forces surrender.
20 Apr 75
U.S. Ambassador Graham Martin meets with President Thieu and pressures him to resign given the gravity of the situation and the unlikelihood that Thieu could ever negotiate with the Communists.
21 Apr 75
A bitter, tearful President Thieu resigns during a 90 minute rambling TV speech to the people of South Vietnam. Thieu reads from the letter sent by Nixon in 1972 pledging "severe retaliatory action" if South Vietnam was threatened. Thieu condemns the Paris Peace Accords, Henry Kissinger and the U.S. "The United States has not respected its promises. It is inhumane. It is untrustworthy. It is irresponsible." He is then ushered into exile in Taiwan, aided by the CIA.
22 Apr 75
Xuan Loc falls to the NVA after a two week battle with South Vietnam's 18th Army Division which inflicted over 5000 NVA casualties and delayed the 'Ho Chi Minh Campaign' for two weeks.
23 Apr 75
100,000 NVA soldiers advance on Saigon which is now overflowing with refugees. In a speech at Tulane, President Ford attempts to wash his hands of the conflict.
27 Apr 75
NVA troops encircle Saigon, which is defended by some 30,000 ARVN troops, many of whose leaders have fled. NVA starts rocketing the city.
28 Apr 75
'Neutralist' General. Duong Van "Big" Minh becomes the new president of South Vietnam and appeals for a cease-fire. The NVA ignore this request.
29 Apr 75
NVA begins attack on Saigon, shelling Tan Son Nhut Airbase killing two Marines. President Ford activates Operation Frequent Wind to evacuate 7,000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon. The signal is a radio broadcast of Bing Crosby's "White Christmas".
29-30 Apr 75
U.S. Navy conducts Operation Frequent Wind to evacuate all U.S. personnel and selected South Vietnamese from Vietnam. Three U.S. aircraft carriers off the coast of Vietnam process the incoming refugees.
SAIGON FALLS
30 Apr 75
The final ten Marines from U.S. Embassy depart by chopper at 8:35 a.m.
30 Apr 75
NVA captures the Presidential Palace by 11 a.m..
30 Apr 75
President Minh broadcasts a message of unconditional surrender. The war is over.
1May 75
It's Over. Most Yanks Got out.
LINK
Posted on 3/31/15 at 9:16 pm to Methuselah
quote:
have these devices ever tipped the scale of a conflict?
No, but booby traps, mines, IEDs and other forms of unconventional warfare has evened out the sides a little bit, but that's the entire purpose of guerilla warfare. You take a small force and attempt to neutralize the larger more sophisticated force through unconventional tactics.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 9:35 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
We won an free and independent South Vietnam in January 1973
Free and independent? That government was a shite show filled with nothing but coups and abuse of the SV people (which didn't exactly aid in our cause against the Viet Cong)
I'll stubbornly argue all day that we didn't lose that war.. but win it? No. Did we kill a lot more of them? Yes. Did we destroy a lot NV property? Sure. Hell, we had them on the ropes when we beat back the Tet Offensive, but win the war we did not.
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