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Posted on 6/8/15 at 11:24 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
He can't but that doesn't matter. They were bikers and deserve whatever happens. To people like him and the others trying to justify what the Waco PD did just being a biker is a crime. And they're fine with punishment for that crime being summary execution.
Your inability to discern what people are posting is problematic. Listen, I know you're getting trolled by some folks, but I'm not one of them. I also know you've got a vested interested in protecting a tainted hobby here.
I said that involvement in a criminal enterprise can be a crime. Which is true. It's also true that there were clubs involved in this incident that likely constitute or include criminal enterprises. I'm sure, as you've stated, that there are other people wrapped up in this mess that are not involved in criminal enterprises.
My point, however, is that simply because you weren't involved in a distinct criminal act during the melee in question doesn't mean charges are unjustified.
This post was edited on 6/8/15 at 11:25 am
Posted on 6/8/15 at 11:27 am to Pettifogger
quote:
Who said it was? Of course, I'm sure you'll admit that there are entities in the COC which likely are/involve criminal enterprises, yes?
Yes, there probably are, just like there's criminal elements in unions, lodges, faternal orgs, etc, so should the cops start arresting all these people too and charging them with participating in organized crime.
That sounds silly but guess what, that's what happened here.
Posted on 6/8/15 at 11:28 am to Pettifogger
quote:
My point, however, is that simply because you weren't involved in a distinct criminal act during the melee in question doesn't mean charges are unjustified.
Wow. Holy shite... wow.
Posted on 6/8/15 at 11:31 am to Agforlife
quote:
unions
Are like bikers.
They suck.
Posted on 6/8/15 at 11:38 am to Rebelgator
quote:
Are like bikers.
They suck.
Guess they need to be gunned down en mass as well, right?
Posted on 6/8/15 at 11:39 am to Agforlife
quote:
just like there's criminal elements in unions, lodges, faternal orgs,
All validity of your other arguments aside, you are making quite the stretch (as in you are making a stupid comparison) when you compare the Mason's and KA fraternity to the Banditos. This from someone with no skin in the game. Dial it back three notches and you will be much more convincing.
Now if you want to talk about the LEADERSHIP of certain Union's, you may have a valid point. But the criminal element density of the Outlaw MC's well exceeds that of any Union that is 95% dues paying members with no participation or knowledge of any criminal activity. In case you can't figure it out, the criminal activities of a Union generally involve stealing FROM their members.
Posted on 6/8/15 at 11:40 am to Darth_Vader
Nah, they're more civil these days.
Posted on 6/8/15 at 11:45 am to jbgleason
quote:
All validity of your other arguments aside, you are making quite the stretch (as in you are making a stupid comparison) when you compare the Mason's and KA fraternity to the Banditos. This from someone with no skin in the game. Dial it back three notches and you will be much more convincing.
Now if you want to talk about the LEADERSHIP of certain Union's, you may have a valid point. But the criminal element density of the Outlaw MC's well exceeds that of any Union that is 95% dues paying members with no participation or knowledge of any criminal activity. In case you can't figure it out, the criminal activities of a Union generally involve stealing FROM their members.
You do understand that I am making a point, yes it's a stretch but it's not a lie. Did I overextend, yes, is my point still valid, yes seeing as there were several people at this debacle who were not members of the Bandidos or Cossacks.
Posted on 6/8/15 at 12:12 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Wow. Holy shite... wow.
What's so shocking? Say you're involved in a ring of meth dealers, and they get in a fight with other dealers. You're there but not fighting. They arrest all of you. They subsequently charge you with RICO or criminal conspiracy or something similar for your meth ring involvement. What is so offensive about that?
Posted on 6/8/15 at 12:13 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
You're there but not fighting. They arrest all of you.
DV doesn't understand this point, no matter the way you wrap it up for him...
Posted on 6/8/15 at 12:14 pm to Agforlife
quote:
Yes, there probably are, just like there's criminal elements in unions, lodges, faternal orgs, etc, so should the cops start arresting all these people too and charging them with participating in organized crime.
The difference between unions, lodges and fraternal organizations is that they typically don't involve a subset that exists in part to engage in criminal activity.
Yes, in any large group there are usually some people involved in individual shady activity. But in a COC there are groups that are likely actively involved in criminal activity. Not isolated, felons carrying guns activity, but drug movement or other ongoing criminal schemes.
Your average Elks Lodge doesn't have that.
Posted on 6/8/15 at 12:31 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Yes, in any large group there are usually some people involved in individual shady activity. But in a COC there are groups that are likely actively involved in criminal activity. Not isolated, felons carrying guns activity, but drug movement or other ongoing criminal schemes.
So what you're saying is that because some members of what is essentially a political organization take part in illegal things away and separate from that organization and not as part of that organization, then everyone else in that political organization who has nothing to do with any such activity or even any knowledge of such activity, are in your opinion subject to arrest for the crimes of others just because they belong to the same political organization?
Posted on 6/8/15 at 12:37 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
So what you're saying is that because some members of what is essentially a political organization take part in illegal things away and separate from that organization and not as part of that organization, then everyone else in that political organization who has nothing to do with any such activity or even any knowledge of such activity, are in your opinion subject to arrest for the crimes of others just because they belong to the same political organization?
Seriously? No.
I'm saying that members of OMCs that were present may be on the hook for more than just the brawl activities, and that if so, that may not be legally problematic.
Now, if it turns out that there are tons of non-1%ers locked up who also had no involvement in the brawl (and I'm guessing there are some), that is going to be problematic.
Posted on 6/8/15 at 12:47 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
I'm saying that members of OMCs that were present may be on the hook for more than just the brawl activities, and that if so, that may not be legally problematic.
I have no problem with anyone actually guilty of a real crime being prosecuted for those crimes.
quote:
Now, if it turns out that there are tons of non-1%ers locked up who also had no involvement in the brawl (and I'm guessing there are some), that is going to be problematic.
Now you're finally getting to the root of the problem here. From every report I've read about the 170 arrested, the majority of them had no criminal record, were not members of any 1%er "OMG", nor was there any evidence of them having anything to do with the fight/shootout in the parking lot. The cops went in and arrested everyone who looked like a biker irregardless of any club affiliation or any proof of them doing anything. They even arrested guys who showed up AFTER everything was over. Not only that, but they then changed them all with the same bogus, but very serious, felony. They didn't even bother changing the wording on any of the individual arrest warrants, just the names. And on top of that the cops then skipped the normal procedure of going to a real judge and instead found a ex-cop "Justice of the Peace" with literally ZERO legal training and had him set these absurdly high one million dollar bonds on everyone.
And all that's on top of the fact that the more information that slowly trickles out (no thanks to the Waco PD) the more it looks like it was the cops who killed and wounded most, if not all, of the almost 30 people shot in the parking lot.
This post was edited on 6/8/15 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 6/8/15 at 12:50 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
was the cops who killed and wounded most, if not all, of the almost 30 people shot in the parking lot.
a genuine curiosity, didnt you recently say it started with one biker shooting another?
if so, itd probably be quicker to just say most.
Posted on 6/8/15 at 12:56 pm to NoSaint
quote:
a genuine curiosity, didnt you recently say it started with one biker shooting another?
if so, itd probably be quicker to just say most.
I didn't word that well. There are eye witness reports that it was one biker in the parking lot shooting an other in the shoulder, wounding but not killing him, that started everything. When that shot was fired, witnesses say one or two more pistol shots were heard then hundreds of rounds were fired from what they describe as "semi-auto rifles, which the cops were the only ones who had such weapons out and ready.
What I should have said is it looks like most of the wounded were shot by cops while all that were killed look, according to the eye witness accounts, were shot by the Waco PD.
ETA: Just found this new news article discussing what happened
This post was edited on 6/8/15 at 1:00 pm
Posted on 6/8/15 at 1:00 pm to Darth_Vader
It is unreal that you think that bikers shooting each other in a parking lot is ok, but police intervention is the issue here..
This post was edited on 6/8/15 at 1:05 pm
Posted on 6/8/15 at 1:01 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
these are not clubs, these are criminal gangs that came here with the intent or anticipation of violence
Thanks for that new link...
Posted on 6/8/15 at 1:11 pm to GrammarKnotsi
quote:
It is unreal that you think that bikers shooting each other in a parking lot is ok, but police intervention is the issue here..
I have no problem with police intervening in a fight, especially a gunfight. But like you've done since the start of this thread you choose to ignore what you don't like. In this instance it's the numerous times I've stated I have no problem with police arresting anyone doing anything illegal.
What's unreal though is that they felt the need to shoot indiscriminately into a crowd then arrest so many in the area who had nothing to do with any of it. Furthermore, it's unreal to me that you're fine with all of this for no better reason that you don't like bikers.
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