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re: Are The Crusades equal to ISIS?
Posted on 2/6/15 at 10:35 am to TheCaterpillar
Posted on 2/6/15 at 10:35 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
I think we agree. I said it was a guise. They certainly had Christian themes in their propaganda.
Positive Christianity
Yeah, I'm familiar with the Nazi's "positive" Christianity scheme. Of all the odd things they tried, that has to rank up among the most bizarre. They didn't fool really anyone with it.
2
Posted on 2/6/15 at 10:36 am to Dr RC
quote:
What he is saying isnt really for the West even though he is talking to the West. Its so he can garner more support from predominantly Muslim countries in the ME to fight these frickers.
Does it suck that he has to tip toe around to get those fools to join up against ISIS? Sure. But the fact is most of the ME does not trust the US and we have to do things like this to get them to cooperate.
Disagree regarding his intent, although I don't dispute the notion behind what you're saying.
I have little doubt he'd pussyfoot around these issues and utter the same moral equivalency arguments even if he wasn't trying to build consensus. Look at the media that embraces him, they do the same. As much as I'd love to think the progressives are just engaged in a well-orchestrated campaign for support from Islamic nations, I don't think that's reality.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 10:38 am to Darth_Vader
It was a political ploy early on. Had they come out at the very beginning of the Nazi party with ideas of Neo-Norse paganism, they might have had a much quicker retaliation from the vastly Christian surrounding countries.
I agree it was a sham, but my point was that some Muslims say that about Isis. Obviously they are leveraging the religious aspect more.
I agree it was a sham, but my point was that some Muslims say that about Isis. Obviously they are leveraging the religious aspect more.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 10:42 am to TheCaterpillar
My biggest issue with people justifying ISIS and Muslim themed violence by saying Christians and other groups did it as well, is the fact that those events aren't justifiable either.
Because one group was completely barbaric and inhumane, that's ok another group is?
Its completely dumbfounding.
Because one group was completely barbaric and inhumane, that's ok another group is?
Its completely dumbfounding.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 10:43 am to jeff5891
Is a Neanderthal killing a Neanderthal over a piece of meat the same as killing someone over a starter jacket?
Spoiler, any answer other than no means you're retarded
Spoiler, any answer other than no means you're retarded
Posted on 2/6/15 at 10:43 am to Pettifogger
quote:Seems like you don't know our history very well. Slave owners in the south were very outspoken in using the Bible to support their slave ownership. Obviously, it was all about greed. I'm a devout Christian, but I won't deny many Christians have tried to hide behind the Bible and Christ to support their awful deeds.
The problem is when he explicitly referenced racial strife in America done in the name of Christ. That is a highly dubious argument, as very little of the violence of the civil rights era, or violence that occurred as a product of slavery, was anything but the product of racial hatred/bias or greed.
However, there is no way to equate the crusades to ISIS today. The crusades are the equivalent of our military work in the Middle East in present times. They chose to push back against the muslims just like we need to push back against them. Fight them there or fight them here is the truth.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 10:50 am to Count Chocula
quote:
Don't believe a word Obama says.... about anything.
This. Obama lies when the truth would serve better. Oh, and frick Obama.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 10:50 am to TheCaterpillar
I still contend that it's a false narrative to try and draw some sort of moral equivalency to the Crusades of the Middle Ages to what ISIS and others like them are doing today.
For starters, the Crusades were a reaction to Muslim attacks on Christian Europe and Christians in the Holy Land. It was Muslim armies that first attacked Europe, not the other way around.
You also have to take into account the culture of that time and judge it by the morals of that time and not by what is considered acceptable nowadays. The things Christian armies did when taking a city during the Crusades is no different than the things Muslim armies did at that time. Nor was it any different than what had been done all the way back to the dawn of civilization. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, if anything the behavior of Christian armies against Muslims during the Crusades was downright merciful when compared to what Mongol armies coming from the East were doing to Muslims at that same time.
For starters, the Crusades were a reaction to Muslim attacks on Christian Europe and Christians in the Holy Land. It was Muslim armies that first attacked Europe, not the other way around.
You also have to take into account the culture of that time and judge it by the morals of that time and not by what is considered acceptable nowadays. The things Christian armies did when taking a city during the Crusades is no different than the things Muslim armies did at that time. Nor was it any different than what had been done all the way back to the dawn of civilization. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, if anything the behavior of Christian armies against Muslims during the Crusades was downright merciful when compared to what Mongol armies coming from the East were doing to Muslims at that same time.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 10:52 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
I still contend that it's a false narrative to try and draw some sort of moral equivalency to the Crusades of the Middle Ages to what ISIS and others like them are doing today.
For starters, the Crusades were a reaction to Muslim attacks on Christian Europe and Christians in the Holy Land. It was Muslim armies that first attacked Europe, not the other way around.
You also have to take into account the culture of that time and judge it by the morals of that time and not by what is considered acceptable nowadays. The things Christian armies did when taking a city during the Crusades is no different than the things Muslim armies did at that time. Nor was it any different than what had been done all the way back to the dawn of civilization. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, if anything the behavior of Christian armies against Muslims during the Crusades was downright merciful when compared to what Mongol armies coming from the East were doing to Muslims at that same time.
I agree.
There is no comparison.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 11:05 am to arcalades
quote:
Seems like you don't know our history very well. Slave owners in the south were very outspoken in using the Bible to support their slave ownership. Obviously, it was all about greed. I'm a devout Christian, but I won't deny many Christians have tried to hide behind the Bible and Christ to support their awful deeds.
I know it quite well actually. The whole point is that there was a great deal of "shielding" and not very much "in the name of" going on. I have little doubt that there was a pocket of racial violence performed by people who truly believed it was their calling to take on, or slavery justified by people who actually thought enslavement was a tool from God. That is similar to varying degrees of intensity in manifest destiny or American exceptionalism today.
The distinction is important, and not because I want to ensure Christians are held in superior regard. Slavery, for example, was something that Christians likely had guilt about and went to great lengths to find Biblical support for to assuage those feelings. But I think most would agree that greed, or survival, or stubbornness, were far more defining and propelling factors. That is not what we're dealing with today.
I will say I'm not convinced that ISIS is as ideologically pure as original AQ, for example. I think this is a blend of religious fervor and greed and bloodlust. It's modern piracy and marauding with religion used as a binding agent. The punishments reflect a hatred that usually only accompanies religion or territory, but I think the recruitment is a combination of religious zealots and those looking to loot and pillage.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 11:09 am to jeff5891
Kind of. I always saw them as an extension of the Reconquista, even though it was the same time period. Had the Reconquista not happened the history of the entire world would have been different, drastically.
The crusades, like the Reconquista was fought over territory lost by prior Christians.
It was more about reclaiming Judea/Israel, than it was eliminating Muslims.
ISIL wants all non Muslims dead.
The crusades, like the Reconquista was fought over territory lost by prior Christians.
It was more about reclaiming Judea/Israel, than it was eliminating Muslims.
ISIL wants all non Muslims dead.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 11:13 am to Napoleon
quote:
ISIL wants all non Muslims dead.
Doesn't stop at just non-Muslims. They want all Non-ISIL dead.
This will lead to their demise.
This post was edited on 2/6/15 at 11:14 am
Posted on 2/6/15 at 11:14 am to Darth_Vader
It's so obvious to me that Obama is an atheist, like many other politicians who can't admit it publicly. I agree that he is comparing apples and oranges here, but he has a point that Americans seem to think Christianity is the epitome of peace when in fact Christians have just as much blood on their hands as anyone else
Posted on 2/6/15 at 11:16 am to Grim
quote:
It's so obvious to me that Obama is an atheist, like many other politicians who can't admit it publicly. I agree that he is comparing apples and oranges here, but he has a point that Americans seem to think Christianity is the epitome of peace when in fact Christians have just as much blood on their hands as anyone else
I'm not Christian and think its a terrible comparison by Obama.
Modern times are different than 1,000 years ago. We have evolved.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 11:18 am to TheCaterpillar
They also make claim to the Caliphate abolished by Turkey in 1924.
With their leader claiming enlightenment and relation to Muhammed.
So it shocks me that more and more Muslims aren't trying to destroy them. The threat they pose to them is much greater than it is to us.
With their leader claiming enlightenment and relation to Muhammed.
So it shocks me that more and more Muslims aren't trying to destroy them. The threat they pose to them is much greater than it is to us.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 11:22 am to Napoleon
FYI, just saw they are now claiming Jordanian air strikes killed the female US hostage.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 11:33 am to Pettifogger
I don't care for Obama, but he's not wrong.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 11:33 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
I'm not Christian and think its a terrible comparison by Obama.
Modern times are different than 1,000 years ago. We have evolved
I agree. Like I said, apples and oranges. No religious groups in recent years have been so atrocious as the radical Muslims, but let's not pretend that Christians haven't been using the Bible to justify hate well into the 21st century. Again, Obama was definitely off the mark with his comparison but I think he just wanted to let people know that the rest of the world doesn't see us as the peace loving caretakers as many like to believe
Posted on 2/6/15 at 11:35 am to jeff5891
I think most people who wield the Crusades as a weapon against Christianity don't actually understand the Crusades.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 11:36 am to Grim
quote:
It's so obvious to me that Obama is an atheist, like many other politicians who can't admit it publicly.
quote:
We've reached a truly remarkable situation: a grotesque mismatch between the American intelligencia and the American electorate. A philosophical opinion about the nature of the universe which is held by the vast majority of top American scientists, and probably the majority of the intelligencia generally, is so abhorrent to the American electorate that no candidate for popular election dare affirm it in public. If I'm right, this means that high office in the greatest country in the world is barred to the very people best qualified to hold it: the intelligencia, unless they are prepared to lie about their beliefs. To put it bluntly American political opportunities are heavily loaded against those who are simultaneously intelligent and honest.
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