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re: Who would you rather for the Saints D-coord
Posted on 12/31/12 at 11:33 am to Breesus
Posted on 12/31/12 at 11:33 am to Breesus
this........you guys just itching to can the guy because of a fricked up season all around need to fricking relax. and i thought that the SEC Rant and Tiger rant was bad about Knee jerking things.
1
Posted on 12/31/12 at 11:36 am to BarbeTiger
quote:
He also probably has the worse personnel in the league. I say he deserves one more year to get the players he wants and to rebuild the defense with those players
Not only this but no one seems to talk about the massive amounts of injuries on the defensive side of the ball this year.
Greer missed just about all of training camp & the first 3 games of the season with sports hernia as well several games later in the season. Truly doubt Jabri was ever really healthy at all this season. Greer's early season injury forced the team to have to start a 5th round pick out of SAMFORD at CB, in Corey White. White was completely lost at times in coverage & seriously doubt anyone in the FO or on the coaching staff thought they would have to start White opening day at corner. White should have spent his rookie year on the practice squad & doing special teams. But even when he finally begins to play well, he gets lost for the season due to injury.
The preseason game against the Jags decimated the linebacking corp for several weeks. The team lost Lofton, Chamberlain & Hawthorne that game. Chamberlain was lost for the season after looking solid in the first two preseason games. Hawthorne tore his menicus which forced him to miss the final two preseason games & first two regular season games. Lofton missed the last two preseason but didn't miss a regular season because of an high ankle sprain. Still in all, high ankle sprains take 5-6 weeks to recover from & Lofton was down for only three. It was obvious early on though that his ankle was hindering his ability to move.
Once the regular season did finally start, the team got Hawthorne back in game three but only to have both he & Casillas go down against KC. That forced Spags to have to start & play the two worst OLB's in the league in Shanle & Herring.
It's been hell for Spags this season. He was trying to implement a new scheme but dealt with players constantly dropping like flies. Its hard to get players adapted to a new system when A) the personnel is not all that great to begin with and B) there is no continuity due to injuries. You can also throw in a C) the inconsistent offense did not compliment defense by sustaining drives this season & what you saw this season is what we got.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 11:41 am to Breesus
quote:
The first half of the season he was missing a Lb coach, two veteran team leaders at vital positions, a HC, the offense was deplorable, and he had just started a totally new defensive scheme. They did improve. God damn give the dude a little slack.
That's a fair point, but you crazy if you think it is unreasonable to consider replacing Spagnuolo. It is absolutely reasonable, and it is not a no-brainer decision to keep him.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 11:43 am to BigBrod81
I count the possibility of DC change at less than 5%. Not worth the effort to even consider.
Kinda like the "Would you rather Texas AM OT Joeckel or Florida St.DE Werner?" question. It doesn't matter if it isn't possible.
Kinda like the "Would you rather Texas AM OT Joeckel or Florida St.DE Werner?" question. It doesn't matter if it isn't possible.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 11:51 am to BigBrod81
I hate the player and scheme argument!
It's the same players (+Lofton & Bunkley) (-Porter) as last year and we weren't this bad and did well enough to make the playoffs.
If the scheme is this bad, frick the scheme! It didn't stop the run, it didn't rush the passer, it didn't drop a bunch of players into coverage to stop the pass. It didn't do a damn thing! A good DC should be able to change his scheme to fit the players.
And why did a scheme take a year plus to implement? And I don't think we improved. The only good defensive games were against shitty teams like Tampa and Oakland. We got slaughtered by middle of the road teams like Dallas, NYG and Carolina at the end of the season.
UNACCEPTABLE!!!!
/rant
It's the same players (+Lofton & Bunkley) (-Porter) as last year and we weren't this bad and did well enough to make the playoffs.
If the scheme is this bad, frick the scheme! It didn't stop the run, it didn't rush the passer, it didn't drop a bunch of players into coverage to stop the pass. It didn't do a damn thing! A good DC should be able to change his scheme to fit the players.
And why did a scheme take a year plus to implement? And I don't think we improved. The only good defensive games were against shitty teams like Tampa and Oakland. We got slaughtered by middle of the road teams like Dallas, NYG and Carolina at the end of the season.
UNACCEPTABLE!!!!
/rant
Posted on 12/31/12 at 11:54 am to diat150
quote:
top notch d coord come in and make improvements. look at wade phillips in houston, mike nolan, even gregg williams. you dont come in and field the worst defense ever and get a pass, at least in my book.
First of all, Wade Phillips took over a Texans defense that is loaded with talent. He didn't have to do very much but his schemes have helped get the most out of the talent there. But let's just ignore the huge tank job that is occurring with the Texas defense or the tank jobs that happened while he was in Dallas.
Mike Nolan's defense in Atlanta isn't great either. They can't stop the run at all but they are ok at CB & have a top 5 safety combo on the back end.
& Gregg Williams???
Really??? His implementation of a pay for performance program, undisciplined defensive teachings & lack of ability to scout & pick defensive talent is why the defense is in the predicament it's facing anyway.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 12:01 pm to BigBrod81
quote:
& Gregg Williams??? Really??? His implementation of a pay for performance program, undisciplined defensive teachings & lack of ability to scout & pick defensive talent is why the defense is in the predicament it's facing anyway.
You are missing the 95% of the play calls were blitzes. It worked for 1 season, and damn what a season that was. I don't think any can say that William is a smarter DC than Spags. Spags, as has been stated in this thread, needs to put in a ton of work with the cards stacked against him. I think he will have a HC job before his defense can be fully implemented, 2yrs.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 12:07 pm to Suntiger
quote:
I hate the player and scheme argument!
Well you don't understand much about football then. I would guess around 80% games are won or lost on Monday's & Tuesday's when coaches put together their game plan for the following week.
Scheme & players go hand in hand. A coach can have the right scheme to put his personnel in the position to make plays but if they players don't execute, then a well designed scheme goes to waste. It goes the other way around as well. You can have the great personnel but without the right scheme & gameplan to put those players in position to succeed then those players will look average or below average. The Saints offense this season was just the case as I pointed out in my second example.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 12:09 pm to Thracken13
quote:
you guys just itching to can the guy because of a fricked up season all around need to fricking relax. and i thought that the SEC Rant and Tiger rant was bad about Knee jerking things.
this. unreal. spags going no where
Posted on 12/31/12 at 12:14 pm to 10888bge
quote:
You are missing the 95% of the play calls were blitzes. It worked for 1 season, and damn what a season that was.
Yes it was a great season because the team won the ultimate prize but let's not pretend the '09 defense was some defensive juggernaut. They were able to create turnovers because of wiley veterans like Sharper, Fujita, Vilma & Harper. Williams blitz schemes were elementary & because of this the defense gave up numerous big plays. The defense also got the benefit of having to play along side an offense who put points up at pace that it forced opposing offenses to take chances which aided in getting some of those turnovers as well.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 12:16 pm to 10888bge
Mike Nolan
Posted on 12/31/12 at 12:19 pm to Paul Allen
It's going to be an entertaining off season. Add a pass rusher opposite Jordan, and let's have this same conversation then.
That bandwagon is gonna be huge next year.
That bandwagon is gonna be huge next year.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 12:30 pm to BigBrod81
quote:
Well you don't understand much about football then. I would guess around 80% games are won or lost on Monday's & Tuesday's when coaches put together their game plan for the following week.
That's squarely on Spags.
quote:
Scheme & players go hand in hand. A coach can have the right scheme to put his personnel in the position to make plays but if they players don't execute, then a well designed scheme goes to waste. It goes the other way around as well. You can have the great personnel but without the right scheme & gameplan to put those players in position to succeed then those players will look average or below average. The Saints offense this season was just the case as I pointed out in my second example.
As I said in my previous post. It's the same players as last year and we weren't this bad. If Spags can't figure out what payers can or can't do after a year and put them in position to make plays or not get embarrassed, then that makes him a bad coordinator.
Anyway you slice it, Spags did a piss poor job this year.
My Stance:
The players need to be upgraded.
I think Gregg Williams overachieved with these players.
Spags underachieved with these players.
I think Spags should be given another year.
I wasn't impressed by anything Spags did this year.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 12:46 pm to Suntiger
the good thing is we know Payton won't stick with a DC if it isn't working. Gary Gibbs was a personal friend of Payton beyond DC. Letting him go after 3 years I'm sure was a very tough personal decision. It ended up being career defining though. Same thing Williams. He was instrumental in making 2009 the special year it was. That was great and very cool. After not sustaining the success though- change!
There's a rambling thread by Champagne about grading the franchise poorly. I haven't participated in it for my own reasons but there is one point I agree with- settle for nothing less than excellence. I'm convinced we are a top notch franchise committed to that. Payton has already shown the mettle to do whatever it takes not just to get to the promised land but to stay in the hunt consistently and have a shot at the big dance again.
There's a rambling thread by Champagne about grading the franchise poorly. I haven't participated in it for my own reasons but there is one point I agree with- settle for nothing less than excellence. I'm convinced we are a top notch franchise committed to that. Payton has already shown the mettle to do whatever it takes not just to get to the promised land but to stay in the hunt consistently and have a shot at the big dance again.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 12:59 pm to Suntiger
quote:
That's squarely on Spags.
So I guess Spags was responsible everytime a player was out of position this season or that it was his fault he had to start Shanle & Herring due to injuries for three games? I guess it was also his fault Greer missed all of training camp & three games to start the season too because of sports hernia? I guess he should have prevented Greer's injury so he wouldn't have had to start a 5th round pick at corner at corner either. I guess he responsible for Hawthorne's & Casillas' injuries against KC too? That damn Spags refused to let his players remain healthy so that they could grasp, grow & adapt to his scheme. He must have been working with Goodell to help sabotage this season.
quote:
As I said in my previous post. It's the same players as last year and we weren't this bad.
Yeah, the offense wasn't as consistent this season either. The point you & others with your opinion can't seem to understand is that the Saints offense was #1 in passing & #6 in rushing in '11. That offense was more consistent & had more long drives then the '12 version. The result was getting dominated in time of possession. There were far too many 3 & outs or 4-5 play drives that resulted into nothing this season. If any of Gregg Williams defenses would have played with a Saints offense that was as inconsistent as this year's unit was then we would have saw similar results. More snaps = more opportunities to give up big plays. Usually the Saints offense dictates the pace & flow of a game. Without Payton, that just wasn't the case this season.
quote:
I think Gregg Williams overachieved with these players.
Gregg Williams stay in New Orleans did more harm then good. The defense is suffering from this coward's inability to scout defensive personnel. His defensive draft choices is what has the defense looking at lack of talent on that side of the ball. Instead, idiots want to place the blame on Spags who just finished his first season as DC.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 3:02 pm to BigBrod81
quote:
quote:quote:
That's squarely on Spags.
So I guess Spags was responsible everytime a player was out of position this season or that it was his fault he had to start Shanle & Herring due to injuries for three games? I guess it was also his fault Greer missed all of training camp & three games to start the season too because of sports hernia? I guess he should have prevented Greer's injury so he wouldn't have had to start a 5th round pick at corner at corner either. I guess he responsible for Hawthorne's & Casillas' injuries against KC too? That damn Spags refused to let his players remain healthy so that they could grasp, grow & adapt to his scheme. He must have been working with Goodell to help sabotage this season.
He said games are won on gameplanning on Mon & Tuesday. I didn't know Hawthorne and Casillas were in charge of that. I thought Spags did the gameplanning. And if you're pinning this defense issues on Hawthorne and Casillas, youre argument isn't going to hold much water. They aren't Ray Lewis or Troy Palumalo... Oh wait, those guys were out and the defenses without those superstars weren't as bad as ours.
quote:
Yeah, the offense wasn't as consistent this season either. The point you & others with your opinion can't seem to understand is that the Saints offense was #1 in passing & #6 in rushing in '11. That offense was more consistent & had more long drives then the '12 version. The result was getting dominated in time of possession. There were far too many 3 & outs or 4-5 play drives that resulted into nothing this season. If any of Gregg Williams defenses would have played with a Saints offense that was as inconsistent as this year's unit was then we would have saw similar results. More snaps = more opportunities to give up big plays. Usually the Saints offense dictates the pace & flow of a game. Without Payton, that just wasn't the case this season.
So it's the offenses fault we couldn't stop the run?
It's the offenses problem we couldn't rush the passer?
It's the offenses fault we couldn't tackle?
The offense played well in a bunch of games and we still gave up 30+ points.
I'll concede that the offense and special teams didn't help the defense at times, but at a certain point they have to help themselves. This defense sucked. Plain and simple. And I didn't see anything that gives me hope for next year other than maybe Payton scores 75 points a game so our defense giving up 30 points per game.
BTW, Saints were still top 3 in yards per game and points per game, so stop blaming the offense.
quote:
Gregg Williams stay in New Orleans did more harm then good. The defense is suffering from this coward's inability to scout defensive personnel. His defensive draft choices is what has the defense looking at lack of talent on that side of the ball. Instead, idiots want to place the blame on Spags who just finished his first season as DC.
I agreed it was time for him to go, but I can't see blaming the defense on Gregg Williams. Who did he fail to scout? Jordan? Jenkins? Who should we have picked in those spots? Those guys were the best available at the time.
I think idiots give Spags an unqualified pass for the worst defense I've ever seen. Has a first year DC ever done as bad as Spags? He has to have some accountability in all this.
And yeah blues, I agree. I don't think SP will put up with another season like this. But as far as I'm concerned, he did nothing this year. But I'm willing to give him another year to turn it around some.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 3:14 pm to 10888bge
Nolan. Look what he has done with Atlanta's sorry arse minus Lofton. Turned them into an opportunistic, ball hawking defense.
Posted on 12/31/12 at 3:31 pm to 10888bge
Gotta give Spags another shot. No way he can do worse than worst
Posted on 12/31/12 at 3:53 pm to Suntiger
quote:
He said games are won on gameplanning on Mon & Tuesday. I didn't know Hawthorne and Casillas were in charge of that. I thought Spags did the gameplanning. And if you're pinning this defense issues on Hawthorne and Casillas, youre argument isn't going to hold much water.
Yeah, so having players that are penciled in as starters out with injury while they are still trying to adapt to a new system, wouldn't cause setbacks for the defense? Not to mention that the replacements for Casillas & Hawthorne were the two worst OLB in the league in Shanle & Herring. Let's not forget Greer's injury forced a 5th round pick to start at CB on opening day.
quote:
So it's the offenses fault we couldn't stop the run? It's the offenses problem we couldn't rush the passer? It's the offenses fault we couldn't tackle?
I never said or implied that the defense was great. What you can't seem to comprehend is that offense failed to compliment the defense this season. This team has been built as an offensive team by an offensive mind. You seem to forget that the defense came up with several crucial stops in several different games this season giving the offense a chance to win the game. When given the chance, the offense shite the bed every opportunity they had.
Let's just forget Drew's pick in a one possession game late in the 4th quarter against the Redskins. Let's forget the offense went 2-11 on 3rd down that game as well.
Let's forget Drew's pick 6 early in the game at Carolina which ended up being a one possession defeat. Let's forget the redzone struggles in that game too.
How about the offense going 5-13 on third down against the Chiefs including 0-6 on their final 6. During that stretch, Drew a pick inside of the Saints 5 that set up a Chief's TD & there was safety mixed in too.
Do you remember the Green Bay game & offense's struggles in the redzone? Do you remember the defense making a stop late in the game giving the offense a chance to pull the game out? After driving into Packer territory, Sproles drops what would have been a 1st down plus on 3rd down. Then Dave Thomas holds as Hartley makes what would have been a go ahead field goal but instead they get backed up & Hartley misses the longer field goal.
How about the defense's two goal line stands in the 2nd half at Tampa when offense decided not show up for the 2nd half?
My point is the defense made plays when they had to. The offense didn't capitalize when the defense gave them those opportunities. In a normal season with a Payton designed offense, that would have been good enough.
These are the draft classes under Williams. There's plenty defensive duds & some guys didn't even pan out.
2009 Draft Class
1 Malcolm Jenkins CB Ohio State
4 Chip Vaughn S Wake Forest
4 Stanley Arnoux LB Wake Forest
5 Thomas Morstead P Southern Methodist
2010 Draft Class
1 Patrick Robinson CB Florida State
2 Charles Brown OT USC
3 Jimmy Graham TE Miami (FL)
4 Al Woods DT LSU
5 Matt Tennant OG/C Boston College
7 Sean Canfield QB Oregon State
2011 Draft Class
1 Cameron Jordan DE California
1 Mark Ingram RB Alabama
3 Martez Wilson LB Illinois
3 Johnny Patrick CB Louisville
7 Greg Romeus DE Pittsburgh
7 Nate Bussey LB Illinois
This post was edited on 12/31/12 at 3:59 pm
Posted on 12/31/12 at 5:52 pm to BigBrod81
quote:
How about the offense going 5-13 on third down against the Chiefs including 0-6 on their final 6. During that stretch, Drew a pick inside of the Saints 5 that set up a Chief's TD & there was safety mixed in too.
Do you remember the Green Bay game & offense's struggles in the redzone? Do you remember the defense making a stop late in the game giving the offense a chance to pull the game out? After driving into Packer territory, Sproles drops what would have been a 1st down plus on 3rd down. Then Dave Thomas holds as Hartley makes what would have been a go ahead field goal but instead they get backed up & Hartley misses the longer field goal.
How about the defense's two goal line stands in the 2nd half at Tampa when offense decided not show up for the 2nd half?
How about the defense giving up two quick scores agains Dallas at the end of the game? D'Angelo Williams rushing for 210 yards?
The defense has to stop that. The offense was still top 3 in scoring and yards. THIS YEAR IS ON THE DEFENSE! If the offense can't score more than 14 points, it's the defenses job to get off the field and keep the score low. Like I said, the offense had four or five games where they crapped the bed, but the defense has to show up. THIS DEFENSE SUCKED! They gave up the most yards in NFL history, 30 points per game. That's on them and ultimately Spagnola.
So 7 of the 10 defensive players drafted are still on the team with 3 starters. Jordan is a good player and Jenkins was a good player until this year (when Spags showed up) PRob has talent, but needs some development.
Why are you supporting Spags? What has he done at all this year to earn the fans support?
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