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Interesting read about Mary Jo White and Bountygate Reference

Posted on 8/12/17 at 2:09 pm
Posted by Mrwhodat
Member since Dec 2015
10296 posts
Posted on 8/12/17 at 2:09 pm
Posted by PFT on August 12, 2017, 11:57 AM EDT

PFT

quote:

When it comes to NFL internal investigations, the initial outcome also should not be presumed to be fair and accurate. It’s a degree of patience and caution that has become justified by bungled, ham-handed NFL investigations of recent years, from the Saints bounty scandal to the cap penalties imposed on Dallas and Washington to the Ray Rice debacle to #Deflategate. All too often, the NFL (like many other large business organizations) selects a desired outcome in such situations and works backward to justify it.



quote:

That attitude likely won’t earn me any friends at 345 Park Avenue (if I have any), but it’s a clear consequence of the manner in which the league has Machiavellied its way through other investigations, at times ignoring common sense and reason to make the square peg of P.R.-driven justice fit in the round hole of reality.


quote:

One of the four experts who participated in the Commissioner’s advisory panel for the Elliott case is Mary Jo White.


quote:

For Saints fans, that name has nearly the same connotation as Ted Wells does for Patriots fans. Five years ago, the NFL hired White to serve as a supposedly independent evaluator of disputed facts and evidence regarding the bounty scandal. At one point, she met with multiple reporters and reviewed what she decided was “overwhelming evidence” of Saintly guilt.

Here’s the piece of “overwhelming evidence” many regarded as a smoking gun, as explained at the time by Peter King: “The NFL Films-recorded quote from defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove, as first reported by SI in March, with Hargrove saying to defensive teammate Bobby McCray, ‘Give me my money,’ after Vitt told the team that Favre was out of the game with a leg injury. (Favre did return to the game without missing a play, but that wasn’t apparent when Hargrove made his declaration to McCray.)”

The problem with White’s insistence that Hargrove said “give me my money” is that careful, objective assessment of the video and audio leads to the fair conclusion that it’s inconclusive, at best, that Hargrove said the words. After watching it over and over and over again, I personally became convinced that he didn’t. Making White’s claim even more problematic is that she defended the conclusion that Hargrove said “give me my money” by saying “you can see his lips moving.” The video did not support that interpretation, at all.

The league later retreated from the insistence that Hargrove said “give me my money,” but the zealous, and erroneous, effort by White to put words in Hargrove’s mouth raised real questions about the overall credibility of her work, since it created a fair impression that she was serving not as an independent evaluator of the evidence but as an advocate for the league’s preferred outcome.

While the bounty scandal had more fundamental flaws (including, as former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue explained in his ruling scrapping the player suspensions, an effort to change a widespread NFL cultural dynamic by catching one team and hammering it with discipline), the effort by White to sell the strength of the case by insisting Hargrove said something that he didn’t obviously say became, at least for me, a key moment. Once I realized that Hargrove didn’t say “give me my money,” a little switch flipped in my typically limited brain. That was the moment where I decided that I wouldn’t just assume that whatever the league says in disciplinary matters is truthful and accurate. Those statements and claims from the league may ultimately be truthful and accurate, but I resolved at that point to resist the urge to say, “Well, if Big Shield says it, it must be true” and to look critically and carefully at every nook and cranny of the proof in order to ensure that everything makes sense.


quote:

Now White is back on the scene, hired once again by the NFL to provide opinions, insights, and perhaps eventually explanations regarding the strength of the league’s evidence against Elliott. Although there’s no reason to assume that there definitely will be a repeat of her inaccurate claims from 2012 (apart from the fact that she previously made an inaccurate claim in 2012), it’s a reminder that there are always two sides to the story, but that the league strongly prefers that its side be accepted as truthful and accurate, no matter what.


quote:

The ultimate lesson from multiple botched investigations is this: The league does what it wants, when it wants, how it wants. It’s one of the spoils of being the dominant and most powerful sport in America. It also makes having a willingness to ask fair questions and, if need be, push back against questionable findings even more important.
Posted by GeauxBayouBengals
Member since Nov 2003
6145 posts
Posted on 8/12/17 at 3:12 pm to
I knew it was Mike Florio before I hit the link. He's the only national guy (or local for that matter) who objectively looked at the facts in the bounty case and concluded the Saints were getting screwed. I love to see other teams have to take the same treatment we got because not one of them came to our defense when it was obvious the Saints were being treated unfairly.
Posted by mindbreaker
Baton Rouge
Member since Dec 2011
7632 posts
Posted on 8/12/17 at 3:16 pm to
This just pissed me off again and it was also the thing (accompanied by poor scouting) that has put this team in mediocrity for the last 5 years.

I know the NFLPA is chomping at the bit to get back to the negotiation table after botching this part of the CBA. I don't think they fully understood the monster they would be dealing with in Goodell at the time.

Posted by bonethug0108
Avondale
Member since Mar 2013
12690 posts
Posted on 8/12/17 at 3:26 pm to
Florio was actually railing us at first too until, like he said, he saw something that made him look at the whole thing more critically.

So like most he was just eating what the league was spoon feeding everyone. I do applaud him for eventually doing some fact finding, but everyone should have been doing that from the start. That is literally the job of every reporter.
This post was edited on 8/12/17 at 3:28 pm
Posted by Mrwhodat
Member since Dec 2015
10296 posts
Posted on 8/12/17 at 4:50 pm to
quote:

Florio was actually railing us at first too until, like he said, he saw something that made him look at the whole thing more critically.



The Wall Street Journal, Dan Le Batard of the Miami Herald, and finally Florio were the only media doing any critical analysis of Bountygate.

The more media, over time, that criticizes the NFL narrative, the better the long term health of the Saints franchise.

The team’s reputation cannot truly ever be repaired. Every journalist, even though previously critical of the Saints that defends the Saints now, should be welcome.

I choose not to criticize Florio or any other journalist that is a "friend of the program".
Posted by Shiftyplus1
Regret nothing that made you smile
Member since Oct 2005
13331 posts
Posted on 8/12/17 at 5:29 pm to
I hate that the rest of the country still believes Goodell about bountygate, but not anything else.
Posted by bonethug0108
Avondale
Member since Mar 2013
12690 posts
Posted on 8/12/17 at 5:38 pm to
My problem with him and pretty much everyone else is that they did not do their job in the first place.

Yes I am thankful that some actually started doing what they should have done in the first place, but I'm not going to praise them for doing their job. Instead I'll just continue to ignore and blast those who don't (I'm not blasting Florio here and I do read his stuff, but I'm not going to give him props for not being a shithead).

I RARELY watch espn anymore. I know my "boycott" isn't going to hurt them, but unless it's something I'm really interested in (like a Saints game) that I can't watch elsewhere I don't want to give them anymore eyeballs. Not that they had good programming aside from actually sporting events anyway.
This post was edited on 8/12/17 at 5:40 pm
Posted by Sid in Lakeshore
Member since Oct 2008
41956 posts
Posted on 8/12/17 at 6:50 pm to
frick the league. frick Goodell.
Posted by Mrwhodat
Member since Dec 2015
10296 posts
Posted on 8/12/17 at 7:57 pm to
quote:

I RARELY watch espn anymore. I know my "boycott" isn't going to hurt them, but unless it's something I'm really interested in (like a Saints game) that I can't watch elsewhere I don't want to give them anymore eyeballs. Not that they had good programming aside from actually sporting events anyway.


I don't watch the NFL Network, ESPN, or Superbowls since Bountygate.

I was harassed on the NFL website during Bountygate. My fantasy teams got frelled by administrators and personal attacks on my account and character went unchecked.

I spoke out and was beat down defending the team. I did gain some traction with my discussion points.

I even got an invitation to become a fantasy football blogger for the network. The condition was that I take an NFL stance.

Paid trolls do exist. You can spot them, if you look.

I am a Saints fan and not an NFL fan. I will never purchase NFL Shop gear and hope to live long enough to see Goodell gone.

I watch the Saints knowing it's an uphill battle riddled with well placed league handicaps.

I applaud the team effort and know the hidden variables to winning go beyond coaching, players, and X's and O's.

I am no particular fan of Florio and do hold most of the sports media in total contempt.



Posted by Colonel Flagg
Baton Rouge
Member since Apr 2010
22776 posts
Posted on 8/12/17 at 8:38 pm to
Anyone who sided with the NFL about bountygate was being a moron or helping push an agenda.
Posted by LooseCannon22282
Mobile
Member since May 2008
33704 posts
Posted on 8/12/17 at 10:17 pm to
quote:

The Wall Street Journal, Dan Le Batard of the Miami Herald, and finally Florio were the only media doing any critical analysis of Bountygate.



I think as time went on, more media people admitted the Saints got railroaded. And that basically that pools had been going on for years in the league for takeaways on defense and QB hits/sacks.

it seems like so much else happened since then with other teams getting thrown into the headlines. The Dolphins with the supposed "Bully Culture" the Patriots with Deflate Gate, the Ray Rice thing, Zeke Elliot recently, even the replacement refs in 2012 and the crowning shite show on Monday Night Football between Green Bay-Seattle.

probably other things I forgot but I think most people besides us have moved on from that. Not saying its a bad thing to have a beef still but I'm sure other fans got tired of hearing about our story just like I know I got sick of fricking DEFLATE GATE!!!

horrible.
Posted by danfraz
San Antonio TX
Member since Apr 2008
24550 posts
Posted on 8/13/17 at 4:55 am to
This makes me hate the NFL more than I already did.

I dislike the league greatly. I don't buy their products, I don't watch their games (except the Saints when on here) and I shite on them every chance I get with any other fanbase.

I'm not a fan of Florio but he's spot on in this case.

frick Roger Goodell
Posted by Damone
FoCo
Member since Aug 2016
32530 posts
Posted on 8/13/17 at 6:38 am to
quote:

Every journalist, even though previously critical of the Saints that defends the Saints now, should be welcome.

Not Peter King, frick that guy.
Posted by Mrwhodat
Member since Dec 2015
10296 posts
Posted on 8/13/17 at 8:13 am to
quote:

Not Peter King, frick that guy.


Peter King has never been a friend of the Saints. Anything he says now that sounds favorable is not genuine. And yeah, "frick that guy".
Posted by tibebecolston
Member since Mar 2013
4129 posts
Posted on 8/13/17 at 1:22 pm to
I'll have a convo from a Nola perspective randomly about bountygate when it comes up from an outsider on occasion and am shocked at their stance on it. Had it once with a Baltimore person which shocked me even more since their D probably invented the bounty term. NFL is Fox News.
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