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re: Omer Asik ain't pretty but
Posted on 12/6/14 at 10:35 am to Galactic Inquisitor
Posted on 12/6/14 at 10:35 am to Galactic Inquisitor
The love for Asik on this board is blowing my mind right now. Honestly, whats the point on having a Center that does what pretty much every 7 footer should be able to do.....block a couple shots and grab rebounds?
I dont see how he takes pressure off of AD if he's incapable of making simple shots around the rim. He poses no threat and causes double teams on AD.
I dont see how he takes pressure off of AD if he's incapable of making simple shots around the rim. He poses no threat and causes double teams on AD.
1
Posted on 12/6/14 at 10:44 am to corndeaux
quote:
It is an interesting comparison you bring up.
I didn't bring it up, Mark brought it up because he thinks that we rip Aminu for the same things we give Asik a pass for only. If Aminu was as dominant defensively on the wing as Asik is in the paint he'd still be on the team. Part of the frustration with Aminu is that the defense was never good enough to justify the poor offense.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 10:46 am to ShamelessPel
I think he is pretty clearly the 3rd best player on the team closely behind Jrue.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 10:55 am to TigerinATL
Asik is serviceable, please don't call him elite. That fricking word gets thrown around way too often.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 10:57 am to OceanMan
quote:
Asik is serviceable, please don't call him elite.
I posted stats showing he was a top 5 center on defense and said he was elite on defense. Is top 5 not good enough for elite?
Posted on 12/6/14 at 10:59 am to brmark70816
quote:
This board praised the team for running off the best rebounding SF in the league and a legit top 10 defender for his position (wouldn't even offer him a minimum contract). But yet, we want to reward or glorify a Center for being pretty much being the same type of player. One guy a couple of posts above mine, even said Asik is the reason that Davis is thriving this year and a MVP candidate (?). That's just insane.
Good post
Posted on 12/6/14 at 11:02 am to corndeaux
quote:
Pull AD early in the 1st for Anderson,
Um, how about no?
Posted on 12/6/14 at 11:32 am to TigerinATL
quote:
If Aminu was as dominant defensively on the wing as Asik is in the paint he'd still be on the team
Of course. No one who watched him play thinks Aminu is a top flight defensive wing. But he isn't a bad one either. He's average, maybe slightly above average. I don't think Evans or Gordon are better than Aminu defensively.
And I'm not sure how many wings can have the same effect a good center can on defense. Even Holiday won't have those types of splits. And I would imagine it is very, very difficult to look good on defense with Smiht, Ajinca, and Steimsma behind you. Plus Monty's schemes have made everyone, even Davis, look poor on defense at times.
quote:
Part of the frustration with Aminu is that the defense was never good enough to justify the poor offense.
His deployment magnified that problem more than anything else. He played 2000 minutes on a league average offense also featuring Robin Lopez and Vasquez. 2000 minutes again on the 13th ranked offense last year with Brian Roberts running the point for half the season. It's not impossible to have a good offense with Aminu on the court.
I certainly disagree with bmark on the PPG and Asik. And certainly on Asik v Aminu. It's not a question in my mind that Asik is a quality player. That he has no offensive game is not a problem. The Pels have a top 10 offense with him playing 28MPG. He's not hurting anything there.
The larger point is that context matters. Every player, save all but the very, very best, has flaws. Putting Asik in a role that asks him to do anything offense besides rebound and set screens is silly. Asking Aminu to play 25 MP as a 3 because he's about that size and, darnit, they are supposed to space the floor, is silly too.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 11:39 am to PrimeTime Money
quote:
Asik was the only one who played defense. My point was to show you that without Asik, the Rockets were one of the worst defensive teams. And with him on the court, he single-handedly made them a top 10 defense.
It would be nearly impossible to win many games with the 28th ranked defense in the league.
Would it not be more relevant to stack up defensive efficiency for every team in the league when their starting center is off the floor? And are you perhaps ignoring the possibility that when Asik was off the floor, the rest of the lineup may have changed as well?
Posted on 12/6/14 at 11:58 am to TigerinATL
quote:
I posted stats showing he was a top 5 center on defense and said he was elite on defense. Is top 5 not good enough for elite?
No, being in the top 17% of any group does not make you inherently elite. I would think that to be elite, you would also have to register as a top performer over a period of time, rather than at one point in time.
Is Phillip Rivers an elite passer because he is currently 5th in the league in passer rating? And where is the cutoff? At #5? That would mean that both Drew Brees and Tom Brady are not elite passers, as they register a lower passing rating.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 11:58 am to corndeaux
quote:
Of course. No one who watched him play thinks Aminu is a top flight defensive wing.
Right, but Aminu got brought into the conversation by brmark saying that we ripped Aminu for the same things we are giving Asik a pass for when those 2 players are an Apples and Oranges comparison.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 12:02 pm to chatchit42
quote:
chatchit42
So you're just ignoring the defensive part of the equation?
Posted on 12/6/14 at 12:09 pm to OceanMan
quote:
No, being in the top 17% of any group does not make you inherently elite. I would think that to be elite, you would also have to register as a top performer over a period of time, rather than at one point in time.
I provided the data so people can adjust the label however they want.
quote:
I would think that to be elite, you would also have to register as a top performer over a period of time
Well the camera data only goes back to last year in which Asik wouldn't have met my criteria for being a starter, but Prime Time Money has already documented his great defensive play in Houston and he earned his reputation as a top defensive center by having similar on/off splits in Chicago where the guy he was replacing was Noah. In 2011-12 Chicago's defense was 7.7 points better when Asik was on the floor. If the overuse of Elite is a pet peeve for you fine, call it what you want, but if you don't think he's a top 5 defensive center then I don't know what else to say that will convince you otherwise.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 12:29 pm to corndeaux
quote:
I certainly disagree with bmark on the PPG and Asik. And certainly on Asik v Aminu. It's not a question in my mind that Asik is a quality player. That he has no offensive game is not a problem. The Pels have a top 10 offense with him playing 28MPG. He's not hurting anything there.
I respect your opinion more than anybody else on here. IMO you are the most knowledgeable poster and always back up your points. But the way you, I and many others analyze performance is different. You are more comfortable looking at analytics and efficiency. You believe that those give you a deeper view into the intricacies of the game. I get it. I don't look at it the same way. I believe that sucks the fun out of the game and I don't want to apply higher math to know who a good player is. In my mind, I should just be able to watch and tell. Also, while valuable, I don't think that stats capture everything. There are nuances that have a great effect that just can't be gauged.
If you truly believe that Asik is a dominant defensive player, then I just am not going to agree. He has never cracked the top 20 in blocked shots. He has been a role player his whole career, so he has only ever played one side of the court. Wouldn't that skew the numbers? He is playing with the best defensive players in the game, Davis, wouldn't that impact them somehow?
I'm just tired of one way Centers that don't even try on the offensive side of the court. We went through this with Chandler (who would at least run for alley opps), then Okafor, f'n Kaman, Stiemsmsa and now Asik. It's depressing and sucks to watch. With the situation at SF, we are literally playing 3 on 5 on offense. I just want something better or at least fluid. If we were winning a ton, then I'd have no room to say anything or bitch. But we still aren't that good.
quote:
Putting Asik in a role that asks him to do anything offense besides rebound and set screens is silly.
Do you think that is sustainable long term? That the team will be successful with a Center that is that limited in range and ability? It's important to determine this now, cause we are about to hand him a ton of money. The Spurs just made a huge mistake with Splitter and they are the smartest team in the league. Should we go down the same path?
Posted on 12/6/14 at 12:39 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
If the overuse of Elite is a pet peeve for you fine, call it what you want, but if you don't think he's a top 5 defensive center then I don't know what else to say that will convince you otherwise.
Well, my point is that being top 5 and being elite are 2 different things. Its not a pet peeve, it is a tactic used to bolster an argument. By using the word elite, you are trying to convince a reader that this player is unequivocally one of the best at his position. Cousins is a whole .6% points behind Asik, rounding out the top 20%. Also, by using that metric, the reigning Defensive Player of the Year, falls to about 42nd on that list. So is it really that great of a metric on defensive effectiveness?
quote:
When he's on the court opposing teams score 99.8 pts per 100 possessions. When he's off the court they score 111.0. That's an 11.2 point difference. On the defensive side of the ball it's pretty clear he's elite.
Does this have anything to do with our backups at the Center position, or the fact that Asik is rotated out with other starters as well, as we all know our second unit is lacking in pretty much every department?
Posted on 12/6/14 at 12:45 pm to brmark70816
quote:
I believe that sucks the fun out of the game and I don't want to apply higher math to know who a good player is. In my mind, I should just be able to watch and tell. Also, while valuable, I don't think that stats capture everything. There are nuances that have a great effect that just can't be gauged.
I agree with this.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 1:05 pm to OceanMan
quote:
Does this have anything to do with our backups at the Center position
That certainly plays a role, but a DRtg of 99.8 would be the 3rd best defense in the league.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 2:01 pm to TigerinATL
aminu was fricking terrible. people labeled him a "defensive" SF because his offensive game was atrocious and they wanted to hang their hat on something.
if people actually watched the games, you can see the impact Asik has. it's more than looking at a box score
im actually blown away by some of the shite i just read in this thread
if people actually watched the games, you can see the impact Asik has. it's more than looking at a box score
im actually blown away by some of the shite i just read in this thread
Posted on 12/6/14 at 2:31 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
aminu was fricking terrible. people labeled him a "defensive" SF because his offensive game was atrocious and they wanted to hang their hat on something.
if people actually watched the games, you can see the impact Asik has. it's more than looking at a box score
im actually blown away by some of the shite i just read in this thread
Posted on 12/6/14 at 4:15 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
im actually blown away by some of the shite i just read in this thread
Good. That is what I'm shooting for and I love the dramatic responses. So far, I've got that I don't watch the games right or analyze production correctly. I can't understand how great of a player Asik is cause he transcends conventional statistical measures and his impact is somewhat stealthy so I need to focus solely on him and his role. It can't be his fault if we lose, cause he is doing what he does great and all the other players are shitting the bed. Am I getting close?
I'm sure it's all the coaches fault. He isn't using Asik correctly. If he would just play him with the right players, then we could see what a great superstar he can be. I'll remember that when I watch a team like the Warriors repeatedly go right at the rim and turn a game into a lay up drill. Even though Asik led the team with a -21 +/- that he can't be to blame. After all, he got 15 rebounds. He's doing all the hard work. I'm sorry I'm not giving him his just due. I can't wait until we wrap him up long term..
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