re: Ingram Mid-Season Highlights

quote:

---

My quesiton still stands, that doesn't answer the question

---

Maybe it's just not the answer you want. 8 more minutes together per game should translate to 2-3 good looks from 3 for BI (getting his total number of 3s up to where the Pels likely want it in the regular season) and also gets Zion a similar amount of easy finishes (rolls, lobs, back-cuts) ....EasyPeasy

quote:

---

Players who average more 3pt attempts per 36 than BI:

---

Don't know what to tell you Shel, sounds like you're stuck ... I'd say look at who's assisting those players putting up 3s. I can tell you, it's BI and Zion. Now look at numbers assisting for BI and Zion. I can tell you there are more unassisted scores for them compared to the rest of the rotation, maybe sans CJ.

I'd argue that Pels have two of the best tough shot makers in the league. If you can get those two 2-3 more easier looks per game (playing them more minutes together), their numbers align more with what you'd like to see.

quote:

---

Why is virtually everyone in our rotation able to get up more 3s than BI? Why is BI the only dude that needs that type of help to get up 3s?

---

Well it starts with the fact that BI is a terrible three point shooter when it's not catch and shoot. He's not Steph Curry, or even CJ, so stop trying to make him be those guys.
2024
38% C&S 33% Pull ups

2023
42% C&S 33% pull ups

2022
36% C&S 21% pull ups

2021
43% C&S 30% pull ups

2020
42% C&S 28% pull ups



While I think he's improving his pull up 3 game, it's not a shot i want him taking, yet that's the only real way for him to get up more 3's b/c he's on the ball too much.

If you want BI taking more threes, then take the ball out of his hands. The soltion to him taking more 3's isnt' taking more ineffecient pull up 3's.

If the ball is going to be in his hands, then him taking a mid range shot from 10-16 feet is more effecient than him taking a 3.

BI has the lowest % of assisted 2 pointers on the team, basically tied with CJ at 39%. They are having to create their own shots inside the 3 point line. Both of them also have 75% of their 3 pointers assisted on, while everyone else on the team is above 90%.
Zion is at 48% of his 2's assisted on. Jose is at 52%, Dyson at 50%, Herb and JV around 60%.




I think BI, as well as Zion could flourish together if they had a true PG that could set them up better. Instead we are playing with an off ball PG (who's been one of the best 3 point shooters in the league this year), and using BI and Zion as PG's.
I honestly dont' know which way would be more efficient to the duo, a true PG or a legit flame thrower like CJ who is also creating shots for himself.

BI is taking more C&S threes than Anthony Edwards this year. 2.5 compared to 2.1. Edwards is 35% on pull up 3's, and takes 4.5 a game compared to BI's 1.4 per game at 33%. BI's 2 pointers are just as effecient as Edwards pull up 3's, both at 106 rating.
Tatum shoots his pull up 3's at 34%, taking 5.8 per game. Also taking less C&S threes than BI at 2.4 per game.




SO again, unless BI can become a 35% pull up 3 point shooter, there's really no reason for him to take pull up 3's, or more pull up 3's, and him getting to the rim or settling for an easy mid range, key word being easy, is a better shot for him at this time. Take him off the ball more or improve his pull up 3 game. which one is it?

Good info, point to Shel is playing Zion and BI together more would up BI's C&S 3s (just 1 or 2 more) due to Zion's gravity, which I agree is the 3 you want him to take. Additionally, I believe it gets Zion a couple of easier shots with BI's gravity.

Absolutely right the space you cede with Zion and BI at point is the vertical center of the court above the key. Really no one on the Pels is equipped to exploit that space e.g. Haliburton, Dame, or Steph. A vast majority of Pels 3s come from the wings and corner.

quote:

---

we are only 11th in ISO frequency%

---

Ingram: "only 11th? I've got work to do"

quote:

---

BI and CJ aren't the same shooters.

CJ can shoot from anywhere from any catching position and be highly effecient. His release is pure from any situation.

BI needs time to get his 3 point shot off, and he typically likes to step into his 3.

---

I hear you, and it's true. But all this does is continue to underscore how BI and his game just do not fit with what is best for this offense, Zion leading the way.

quote:

---

stop with this nonsense. You over exagerrate this too much.

---

You've said before that BI literally "never" passes up an open 3, takes 1-2 dribbles in and takes a contested 2. Or more simply put, I have no idea what Pels basketball you're watching that leads you to believe this thing that has happened a shite ton of times has never happened even once.

quote:

---

as i said, he's a slower shooter, and sometimes is run off the line b/c he is an elite C&S 3 point shooter. He is not settling for 22' jumpers over wide open 3's from 24'

---

Except that...he is. He absolutely passes up on open 3s, I'm dumbfounded this would be debated by anyone.

quote:

---

That’s it, thats the reason

---

lol … you got your answer, albeit entirely retorical, was there really a question in your mind?

Now back to the thread, forays to the rim are niiiiice when BI has bad intentions

quote:

---

Yes, because Tatum and Edwards are #1 options on their teams. The reason why BI is taking around the same amount as them is because we treat BI as a #1, like them.

---

well i got news for you, until Zion becomes Giannis, or adds something other than barrelling to the goal for a highly contested layup that he falls down on every single time, BI is goign to continue to be the #1 option on this team.
And that's not me saying that's what i want, b/c I do'nt want BI to be the #1 option. But i also don't want to relegate him to essential what Trey Murhpey is. If you think we can just replace BI with Trey and get better, you're kidding yourself.

quote:

---

Again, underscoring why BI simply does not fit what we should be doing to maximize this offense, leaning wayyyyy more into Zion and upping his usage more and more.

---

can you name a championship team that didn't have a high level guard who could create his own shot, and was simply led by a guy who takes 95% of his shots at the rim?
You have to have a guy who can create for himself and hit tough shots in the playoffs. BI can do that. Doesn't mean he has to be the #1 option to do that, but what he does is special and is needed to win a championship.

The closest example to what our team could be is what the Bucks were in '21 when they won it. I don't expect Zion to ever get near the defensive level of Giannis, but he can absolutely provide the same offense.
That team doesn't win shite without Khris Middleton, and a 3rd creator in Jrue.

Middleton took 5.4 threes a game in the regular season, about half and half C&S and Pull ups, and was over 40% on both.
Jrue took 4.8 threes at 39% in the regular season.

in the playoffs they both took more 3's, Middleton at 7.6 and Jrue at 6.2, adn they shot significantly worse at 34% and 30% respectively.
Middleton dropped 1% point from the regular season to the playoffs on his 2 pointers. Jrue dropped 10%.
Giannis stayed about the same on his 2 point %.


Middleton saw less open 3's, and took more 3's later in the shot clock in the playoffs.

You know what stayed steady for him, and why you have to have guys like Middleton and BI in the playoffs? His percentage on contested 2 pointers didn't change compared to the regular season, nor did it really change for his mid range game.
When teams are going to take the 3 away from you, and help when you go to the goal more b/c they are hustling more, then that mid range shot starts to become a rather effecient shot compared to the contested 3, or clog in the lane. And since they are already used to hitting that shot with a guy in their face in the regular season, it's not a shot that gets harder to make in the playoffs like every other shot you take in the playoffs.

quote:

---

Obviously, the correct hierarchy is Zion as the number one option when both are on the court and BI playing off of him.

---

I agree.
and BI is a better option off the ball with ZIon on the ball, then ZIon is off the ball with BI on the ball.
ZIon is worthless off the ball usually.
BI is an elite C&S 3 point shooter and when you close on him he's attacking the goal and finishing at 73% at the rim.