Dunc'd On w/ Seth Partnow

They are pretty spot on and have echoed a lot of the sentiments we have had on this board.

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- Is because he is shooting 3s? Both guys say no

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I kind of agree and disagree with this point. It's not because he's shooting 3s, but it's kind of related. He's spending way too much time 24-25 feet from the basket. It's nice that when someone sags that deep, he can hit a few. However, he's not going to beat you out there. Teams will be happy to let him drain a few threes if it means less time making easy shots near the basket and grabbing offensive rebounds.

We saw all of last year that he struggles to drive when he has to take more than one dribble. I think most people were okay with the idea of him popping out and shooting a 3 on occasion. That's not what's happening now. Gentry needs to get his head out of his arse and watch some film of Davis. He needs to set up at 16-18 feet where he can work. He can always take a couple steps back behind the line when the defense sags on a driving guard.

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it was mostly attacking from the FT line and in

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Yet he has Davis camping out 25 feet away...

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They won't double Tyreke though.

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They weren't typically doubling Nash on the perimeter in the highlights, but they'd run P&R or he'd attack the paint and he'd end up with 2 defenders looking at him and not Amare. Tyreke is able to move a defense too, that's why he takes so many ill advised layups over 3 people in the paint.

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Tyreke is able to move a defense too, that's why he takes so many ill advised layups over 3 people in the pai

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Truth. The issue comes with distributing the ball. There also won't be nearly as many Kobe assists with AD avoiding the paint like hot lava.

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Gentry needs to get his head out of his arse and watch some film of Davis. He needs to set up at 16-18 feet where he can work.

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So a couple of things-

Teams are packing the lane so Davis doesn't get a free ride to the rim. They don't care about Cunningham or Babbitt or Ajinca. And they certainly don't care about Gee, Smith, or Douglas. They will ignore those guys and give Davis nothing to work with. When Davis gets the ball, he has to be a better passer. Babbitt's 3 down 5 with about a minute left was a great pass. He missed and the game was over. But Davis made a great read to a wide open shooter. He has to keep doing that, and guys have to knock down shots, if Davis wants to get more space.

I don't know how just setting up at 16-18 feet instead of 22 feet will change that. They have run Davis off pin downs. Davis has curled them into multiple defenders. Was that by design or did he misread the defense and not flare when he should have? I dunno. They've posted him up and it hasn't been much better either.

I agree they need to get Davis more involved and they need to find ways to make it easier for him. But I don't think that's as easy to do given the current situation as some like to think.

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Also, if this offense is predicated on Tyreke being a high level distributor, we're in trouble even after he gets healthy.


I agree, I already did a thread about my serious doubts on the Oopty Oop as a primary formation

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I also think the offense is very, very simplified at the moment. You watch the Suns playbook and you see much more off ball movement. Right now, it's basically standard spread, high pick and roll. There's more to SSOL/Gentry than just that action. And again, all the off ball movement in the world likely won't change the fact that defenses don't care about Cunningham running off screens the way they cared about Raja Bell.

And I'll add that Evans has better vision than Holiday IMO. Holiday has been awful running the offense. I know the advanced stats, but I have been unimpressed with the way the ball moves with him at the point. He is trying to squeeze 34 minutes of action into 25. We saw Toney freaking Douglas get a couple of wide open strolls to the rim from the 3pt line after simple side to side ball movement. But we haven't much ball movement throughout these first 4 games. You don't need a Nash to make things work, but you need guys willing to move the ball and trust that it will find the open man. That isn't there yet with this team.

Whether that's on the players, coaches, or just a matter of time is not for me to say.

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So a couple of things-

Teams are packing the lane so Davis doesn't get a free ride to the rim. They don't care about Cunningham or Babbitt or Ajinca. And they certainly don't care about Gee, Smith, or Douglas. They will ignore those guys and give Davis nothing to work with. When Davis gets the ball, he has to be a better passer. Babbitt's 3 down 5 with about a minute left was a great pass. He missed and the game was over. But Davis made a great read to a wide open shooter. He has to keep doing that, and guys have to knock down shots, if Davis wants to get more space.

I don't know how just setting up at 16-18 feet instead of 22 feet will change that. They have run Davis off pin downs. Davis has curled them into multiple defenders. Was that by design or did he misread the defense and not flare when he should have? I dunno. They've posted him up and it hasn't been much better either.

I agree they need to get Davis more involved and they need to find ways to make it easier for him. But I don't think that's as easy to do given the current situation as some like to think.

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I'm sorry, but you are getting to the point of defending Gentry for the sake of defending him. Just like when you lashed out at me for implying that some of Monty's sets could be integrated into the half court. You ignored most of that post to attack the 16-18 foot part without context. Do you disagree that AD is far less efficient when needing more than one dribble?

Let's not act like Monty was always dealing with all star guards when setting up plays for Davis. I don't need to go back and list all of the injuries we have had to guards under Monty's regime. That said, he had AD on an upward trajectory and he never seemed to disappear like he has under Gentry.

I know Monty isn't coming back, but Gentry needs to figure something out or we'll keep losing to lowly teams.

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I also think the offense is very, very simplified at the moment. You watch the Suns playbook and you see much more off ball movement. Right now, it's basically standard spread, high pick and roll. There's more to SSOL/Gentry than just that action. And again, all the off ball movement in the world likely won't change the fact that defenses don't care about Cunningham running off screens the way they cared about Raja Bell.

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Then why keep running an offense that doesn't fit your personnel in any way? The high pick and roll is way too high to be effective based on the point from above about limiting Davis' dribbles. He's not a point guard. He never will be. The fact that he played it some in high school does not mean he can do it in the NBA. Like others have said, he is not Durant. Stop trying to make him Durant.

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And I'll add that Evans has better vision than Holiday IMO.

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Our opinions are different. If he has better vision, he is just a selfish player, because he forces way too many shots at the rim.

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Whether that's on the players, coaches, or just a matter of time is not for me to say.

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I blame Drake.

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You ignored most of that post to attack the 16-18 foot part without context.

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I didn't ignore or attack anything. I talked about the problems I see when they play offense and said this

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I don't know how just setting up at 16-18 feet instead of 22 feet will change that.

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If defenses are packing the paint to stop Davis from getting easy looks at the rim, how does setting screens at 16-18 feet instead of 22 help solve that problem? I don't see what the difference would be, but I'd love to hear your answer instead of ad hominem comments about my motives or vague comments about Monty. Beyond "do some things Monty did" what specifically do you want to see and why would that work now? Like before, I'm asking a question and I am curious to hear an answer.

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Do you disagree that AD is far less efficient when needing more than one dribble?

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The fact that he played it some in high school does not mean he can do it in the NBA. Like others have said, he is not Durant. Stop trying to make him Durant.

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"Like others have said?" I'm the others, bruh.

Why you believe I think these things is beyond me. I've never once said anything about Davis needing to create more or having perimeter handle. He is a finisher, not a creator. I've always been on the side of caution with Davis as an offensive weapon (check with Gtothemoney).

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Then why keep running an offense that doesn't fit your personnel in any way? The high pick and roll is way too high to be effective based on the point from above about limiting Davis' dribbles.

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This is the rub. What offense fits this personnel? You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shite. I said it about Monty before and I'm saying it about Gentry now. That isn't a free pass; they need to fix a lot of things. But context was fair then and it's fair now.

Also, why do you think Davis needs to dribble much at all from the 3pt line while he's setting a screen? He can roll to the rim, catch and dunk from about the foul line. One bounce and dunk from beyond that. He can walk into an 18 footer. He can step back for a 3. Monty set PnRs at the top of the key. Literally every team in the league will set high PnRs. This is a staple of every offense in the league, not some crazy Gentry plan.

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Teams aren't packing the paint any more than they have in the past. It's not like Tyreke was the spacer for our offense last year. Gordon is still here. Anderson is still here

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I would disagree a bit here. Tyreke isn't a spacer, but when he has the ball, he can get all the way to the rim and he draws attention. That's not really happening with any of the guards right now. If you don't have to really worry about penetration, it's much easier to play defense.

As for Anderson/Gordon, I agree to a certain extent. Looking at very early lineup data, when Davis is playing with both of them, they are just over 100PPP. When Davis is playing with just Anderson, a normally explosive duo, they are under 100 PPP. That's a bad, bad early return and that shouldn't happen with these two bigs. When you add Holiday to Davis/Anderson, you jump to 122 PPP. When you add Holiday to Davis/Anderson/Grodon, they jump to 118. Smith/Douglas numbers are back at or under 100 PPP. As much as I've shite on Holiday, these numbers are telling me I need to give him a closer look.

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Let's say they run a PNR. Davis is at the elbow. His guy squeezes down on the lane. The point passes to Davis who has a little space. However, one of the defenders tries to recover on the pass. Davis can put a one dribble down and drive past the recovering defender. He can't do that from 23 feet.

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You're assuming he is static and doesn't roll or flare after the screen and that's fine. I think he should be moving and reacting to what the defense gives him.

I think this play (last video) is indicative of what he's been seeing and was a good sign of progress.

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You can see both Payton and Fournier all over him on the catch with both of them having two feet in the lane before Davis even gets the ball. Both Babbitt and Gordon are WIDE OPEN. Davis kicks to Babbitt (who probably should have kicked to Gordon, but whatever) who gets a great look at cutting the lead to 2. It doesn't go in, but that was the type of pass we weren't seeing from Davis just a couple games ago.








This is another good play (last video). Simple and effective use of Gordon's shooting ability to get Davis a dunk. Anderson's gravity keeps his man from crashing and same with Holiday and Babbitt's on the other side. Even if Oladipo crashes like he should, it's an easy kick out or Davis will just go up over the 6'4" guard.

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Again, this doesn't mean everything is right. And the last play is in garbage time, down ten with a minute left. But there are signs, to me at least, that things can work this way. Few and far between at the moment, but still some signs.

All good. I like the discussion.



I fully realize I am in the bag for the style of play Gentry/Spurs/Bud preach. Good to have opposite opinions make me think harder about and question what I'm seeing. Thanks for sharing your thoughts about what you are seeing and would like to see