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Are the Pelicans following the Bucks defensive model?
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:22 am
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:22 am
On yesterdays Lowe Post*, Zach talked about the Pelicans pretty late in the podcast, somewhere around the 52 minute mark or so.
He made the comment that both SVG and JVG have talked a lot about the Bucks defensive strategy in recent years, and he finds it fascinating because he thinks we are following the Bucks defensive model to a T.
We have one of the best interior defenses in the league so far, one of the lowest fouling rates, and one of the highest rebounding rates...but by far one of the highest 3s allowed rates, an almost absurd amount of 3s.
Basically, we are shutting down the rim completely, not fouling anyone, gobbling up any miss off the glass...but allowing the perimeter to be a bit more open and just trying to close out on 3 point shooters with our athleticism and length, exactly what the Bucks have basically been doing for years. It has worked really well for the Bucks...
And it seems to be pretty successful so far. Our defensive ratings are pretty darn good despite giving up a shitload of open 3s. Yes, you are going to get burned by some teams doing this who are just on fire from 3, but you're also going to take away the highest percentage shots at the rim and from the stripe, which is a smart strategy.
I just thought it was interesting discussion.
*I realize this is the third thread I have created based on Zach Lowe's podcast in recent weeks. I just think its interesting when smart national people talk about the team, and its good to generate discussion.
He made the comment that both SVG and JVG have talked a lot about the Bucks defensive strategy in recent years, and he finds it fascinating because he thinks we are following the Bucks defensive model to a T.
We have one of the best interior defenses in the league so far, one of the lowest fouling rates, and one of the highest rebounding rates...but by far one of the highest 3s allowed rates, an almost absurd amount of 3s.
Basically, we are shutting down the rim completely, not fouling anyone, gobbling up any miss off the glass...but allowing the perimeter to be a bit more open and just trying to close out on 3 point shooters with our athleticism and length, exactly what the Bucks have basically been doing for years. It has worked really well for the Bucks...
And it seems to be pretty successful so far. Our defensive ratings are pretty darn good despite giving up a shitload of open 3s. Yes, you are going to get burned by some teams doing this who are just on fire from 3, but you're also going to take away the highest percentage shots at the rim and from the stripe, which is a smart strategy.
I just thought it was interesting discussion.
*I realize this is the third thread I have created based on Zach Lowe's podcast in recent weeks. I just think its interesting when smart national people talk about the team, and its good to generate discussion.
This post was edited on 12/29/20 at 9:23 am
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Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:30 am to Fun Bunch
Stan outlined it when he first got here. The 2 most efficient shots are layups and free throws. Take that away and you'll have a pretty good defense.
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:32 am to Fun Bunch
I think SVG has been clear and consistent with the defensive philosophy. And there is some truth to the comparison. But this is really early in the season and I expect the defense to evolve as the season progresses. I don't think SVG is happy with all the inconsistencies of perimeter rotations and allowing the absurd amount of open 3s right now. I think he wants to shut the paint down but also force tough perimeter shots. We aren't defending the perimeter as well as SVG ideally wants right now. But I expect them to by the end of the year. That's when we'll have a better idea on what SVG and the Pelicans defense are really capable of.
This post was edited on 12/29/20 at 9:33 am
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:33 am to TigerinATL
It makes a lot of sense. It is going to get frustrating in certain games like vs Miami when they are just bombing 3s. But it does make for smart strategy in the regular season.
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:34 am to Fun Bunch
Good stuff. That explains Duncan et al on Xmas...
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:36 am to Fun Bunch
Reading OP all I could think is "Thank God Uncle Al is gone".
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:44 am to TigerinATL
I’m sure he’d hope we run guys off the 3P line better. There’s open looks and there is open looks
We are seeing what happens when some decent individual defenders get coached into playing team defense. More communicating and switching. Versatility guarding. Adams has been huge, obviously
We are seeing what happens when some decent individual defenders get coached into playing team defense. More communicating and switching. Versatility guarding. Adams has been huge, obviously
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:45 am to Fun Bunch
Interesting thing about this is Jake Madison talked about the open 3's thing on his podcast this morning too. Basically said that just about every 3 is open anyway when you look league tracked stats and at what is truly a contested 3. The important thing is to give 3's to bad/average shooters, and try to limit them to the Duncan Robinsons of the league. I like the plan. It does seem like its definitely a bucks model, some teams are gonna eat against it, like the heat, but for a full season I think its gonna be huge for us this year.
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:46 am to GynoSandberg
Yea I think the end game is to give up highly contested 3 points shots or run them off the line for a poor mid range shot. We have the defenders to do it but its going to take a lot of work to get there since the communication breakdowns are going to be an issue until it's second nature for them.
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:49 am to Fun Bunch
I don't disagree with that, but we've still allowed a bit more points in the paint than I'd like to see.
I'd be curious what the split is of points allowed in the paint with Adams on the floor vs. off.
I'd be curious what the split is of points allowed in the paint with Adams on the floor vs. off.
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:50 am to Fun Bunch
Funny you make this post, just last night I was in a deep dive on BRef looking at defense metrics and % of shots at the rim vs from 3 and all those good numbers.
And I had that similar thought. Pels are giving up a ton of 3pt attempts but I think we were 3rd or 4th in the entire league in % of shots given up at the rim.
Our defensive rebounding rate is also 88%, which is wild. 1st in the league easily, with 2nd all the way back at 82%.
And I had that similar thought. Pels are giving up a ton of 3pt attempts but I think we were 3rd or 4th in the entire league in % of shots given up at the rim.
Our defensive rebounding rate is also 88%, which is wild. 1st in the league easily, with 2nd all the way back at 82%.
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:50 am to Fun Bunch
Also, its good to bring those podcast discussions here. I dont get a chance to watch all the games outside of the Pels. I just started listening to podcasts lately and between the pels centric ones and Lowe's as well as a couple other national ones it helps to keep in touch with whats going on with the league and where the pels are stacking up. Much better than the crap discussions that gets put on TV.
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:56 am to bonethug0180
We've played 3 teams who are extremely good at getting points in the paint and we've done a real good job of limiting it through 3 games. As we get a bigger sample size and play teams who are average to below average at getting points in the paint, this particular stat will look even better.
Posted on 12/29/20 at 9:59 am to supe12sta12z
I'm definitely not complaining. It's still a big improvement on last year.
I'm just more curious what the breakdown is with Adams vs. without. And if that points to what I fear is happening or if it just is what it is.
I'm just more curious what the breakdown is with Adams vs. without. And if that points to what I fear is happening or if it just is what it is.
This post was edited on 12/29/20 at 10:00 am
Posted on 12/29/20 at 10:02 am to cajun_tiger
You just can't realistically take away everything. I remember Alvin talking about defense after the bad games saying we need to run teams off the 3 point line better, keep them out of the paint better, defend in transition better, basically they sucked at everything because they were trying to be good at everything. Simplifying the defensive focus and making sure the team is really focused on defense appears to be paying off.
We all knew a better coach would get better results, but it's crazy to see how big of a difference a simple philosophy change can make.
LINK
We all knew a better coach would get better results, but it's crazy to see how big of a difference a simple philosophy change can make.
quote:
“We know we’re good in transition, but we can’t get in transition if we’re taking the ball out of the net the whole game,” Ball said. “It really starts on defense for us. I think the majority of our wins are going to come from us playing good defense. I think that’s the key focus.”
LINK
Posted on 12/29/20 at 10:03 am to Fun Bunch
I brought this up in the preseason when people were melting about the number of 3 point attempts we were giving up. The Bucks allowed the most 3 point attempts (and makes) in the NBA last season and still ended up as the most efficient defense.
It will bite us at times, when playing against teams with really good shooters (see Miami and what they did to us and the Bucks last playoffs), but overall it can be a good strategy.
It will bite us at times, when playing against teams with really good shooters (see Miami and what they did to us and the Bucks last playoffs), but overall it can be a good strategy.
Posted on 12/29/20 at 10:20 am to Epic Cajun
i don't see how this type of "chase them off the 3-pt line" defense is sustainable on an 8-man rotation
Posted on 12/29/20 at 10:25 am to jmcwhrter
That was Big Al saying that, not SVG.
Posted on 12/29/20 at 10:36 am to Solo
quote:
Good stuff. That explains Duncan et al on Xmas.
Right but we aren’t not defending the three.
Prioritizing the paint and rebounding doesn’t mean we are just saying, hey guys, go ahead and have a three point drill in-game, we’ll sit back and watch. Not saying you are saying that but people have been recently in response to excusing the three points. Our strategy will eventually give up more than most, but there is a specific way teams like the Bucks do that. Which presumably we are attempting to mirror in many ways.
SVG was very upset about Duncan because as he said, at least 3-4 were the result of us just not rotating, losing him in transition, or not closing out soon enough.
Bucks for instance lock down the paint, focus on ending possessions through stingy rebounding, but also force teams away from the corner three, and have guards that are very good at getting over screens when the big drops on PnR, which is why this philosophy doesn’t get gutted. Where they give a window for shooters is the 26 footer, and they typically try and stay tight on better shooters by keeping their best defenders on them so the ball gravitates to the lesser shooters.
This post was edited on 12/29/20 at 11:33 am
Posted on 12/29/20 at 12:42 pm to bonethug0180
quote:
we've still allowed a bit more points in the paint than I'd like to see
We’re at 41.3 ppg allowed in the paint. Good for second in the league. If we kept that up for a whole season, it would rank as a top five unit, 4 of the last 5 years.
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