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Started By
Message
Let's talk about the filming of *quality* action scenes
Posted on 9/8/15 at 10:06 pm
Posted on 9/8/15 at 10:06 pm
choreography, cinematography, and editing are the most important elements of a good fight scene. unfortunately, most American movies follow a general trend of hyperkinetic editing with quick cuts and up-close action. this is shitty; it's not how our eyes process images. we don't have lightning-quick changes in perspective from a foot away. it's probably done to mask shitty choreography and stunt doubles.
well-filmed action scenes consist of a mixture of wide and mid-range framing, with a nice balance of stationary shots and tracking shots. the camera shouldnt be moving back and forth rapidly. in regards to positioning, the combatants should be framed in a way that gives the viewer good spatial awareness and prevents confusion when changing perspectives - they should typically stay on their respective sides in the shots. Obviously these aren't rules, just general guidelines. Depends on the circumstances of the combatants.
let's take a look at some examples (watch at own risk--i left warnings on some, but nothing is truly spoilery)
Lets start with the
BAD
I'll start it off with a ridiculous example. it's not a fight scene, but it's a nice microcosm of what's wrong with fight scenes today
Catwoman - Laugh all you want, but the following examples are no different
Bourne - Enjoy the headache
Taken (1:11 is a gem) - Enjoy the seizure
Hunger Games - Trash
erratic, abhorrent camera movement, incessant cuts, rapid changes in perspective, a gazillion up close shots. you cant tell what the frick is going on
GOOD
Matrix Reloaded
Matrix Reloaded - 2
Yall may laugh at this one too, but when Wachowskis & Co aren't animating fights and trying to sound smarter than they really are, they really knew how to film a fight scene (I can speak for Matrix, haven't seen their other stuff). the average shot length is a few seconds, good placement and framing. The 2nd clip is really shot, but look at the way Morpheus and the Twins are framed and look at how much they accomplish in that one very short shot while Trinity is getting the car. that's good stuff
John Wick - the board favorite, this scene kicks arse. very fluid and well-choreographed (shooting style is Center-Axis Relock for those interested in learning more)
Hero - a masterclass in fight choreography. satisfies all of the criteria I listed above. incredible work
The Raid: Redemption Hallway Scene - Another banger and one of my personal favorites. This is how you do claustrophobic the right way.
Raid 2 - cant tell yall how many times I've watched this one. fantastic and visceral choreography with outstanding camerawork. not spoilery, no major character deaths, just top henchmen.
Children of Men - Car scene Famous one that everyone knows about, but it doesnt make it any less great. spoilery death, but KYS if you haven't seen this already
Heat - nuff said. also KYS if you havent seen this either. all of Mann's movies have phenomenal cinematography and the sound editing is perfect. the guns all sound exactly as they should
Mad Max Fury Road Watch the entire movie because it's a masterpiece, but this is a good example.
Oldboy (Original) Hallway Scene - A true unbroken shot (not a pretend one like everyone is doing these days). Sloppy and charming. Love how tired everyone gets at the end
after watching those good scenes, go back and watch the shitty ones and tell me that theyre not disorienting and insufferable. it's why I cant stand hacks like Greengrass. most of the Parkinson's camerawork comes from american directors, because american directors generally suck at filming and editing action.
Post some good action scenes and discuss what you look for in one
bonus gif of how they did that awesome shot in the Raid 2 chase scene. guy dressed as a seat
ETA: edited for 2018
well-filmed action scenes consist of a mixture of wide and mid-range framing, with a nice balance of stationary shots and tracking shots. the camera shouldnt be moving back and forth rapidly. in regards to positioning, the combatants should be framed in a way that gives the viewer good spatial awareness and prevents confusion when changing perspectives - they should typically stay on their respective sides in the shots. Obviously these aren't rules, just general guidelines. Depends on the circumstances of the combatants.
let's take a look at some examples (watch at own risk--i left warnings on some, but nothing is truly spoilery)
Lets start with the
BAD
I'll start it off with a ridiculous example. it's not a fight scene, but it's a nice microcosm of what's wrong with fight scenes today
Catwoman - Laugh all you want, but the following examples are no different
Bourne - Enjoy the headache
Taken (1:11 is a gem) - Enjoy the seizure
Hunger Games - Trash
erratic, abhorrent camera movement, incessant cuts, rapid changes in perspective, a gazillion up close shots. you cant tell what the frick is going on
GOOD
Matrix Reloaded
Matrix Reloaded - 2
Yall may laugh at this one too, but when Wachowskis & Co aren't animating fights and trying to sound smarter than they really are, they really knew how to film a fight scene (I can speak for Matrix, haven't seen their other stuff). the average shot length is a few seconds, good placement and framing. The 2nd clip is really shot, but look at the way Morpheus and the Twins are framed and look at how much they accomplish in that one very short shot while Trinity is getting the car. that's good stuff
John Wick - the board favorite, this scene kicks arse. very fluid and well-choreographed (shooting style is Center-Axis Relock for those interested in learning more)
Hero - a masterclass in fight choreography. satisfies all of the criteria I listed above. incredible work
The Raid: Redemption Hallway Scene - Another banger and one of my personal favorites. This is how you do claustrophobic the right way.
Raid 2 - cant tell yall how many times I've watched this one. fantastic and visceral choreography with outstanding camerawork. not spoilery, no major character deaths, just top henchmen.
Children of Men - Car scene Famous one that everyone knows about, but it doesnt make it any less great. spoilery death, but KYS if you haven't seen this already
Heat - nuff said. also KYS if you havent seen this either. all of Mann's movies have phenomenal cinematography and the sound editing is perfect. the guns all sound exactly as they should
Mad Max Fury Road Watch the entire movie because it's a masterpiece, but this is a good example.
Oldboy (Original) Hallway Scene - A true unbroken shot (not a pretend one like everyone is doing these days). Sloppy and charming. Love how tired everyone gets at the end
after watching those good scenes, go back and watch the shitty ones and tell me that theyre not disorienting and insufferable. it's why I cant stand hacks like Greengrass. most of the Parkinson's camerawork comes from american directors, because american directors generally suck at filming and editing action.
Post some good action scenes and discuss what you look for in one
bonus gif of how they did that awesome shot in the Raid 2 chase scene. guy dressed as a seat
ETA: edited for 2018
This post was edited on 6/26/18 at 1:21 pm
19
Posted on 9/8/15 at 10:13 pm to Carson123987
quote:My favorite for sure. I disagree with you about the Bourne movies. I think the shaky camera shows the chaotic nature of the fight scene. The Raid 2 had it's fair share of shaky camera. I thought there might have been too much in the second Bourne movie (which is the example you gave), but I thought the third one did it very well. Just my opinion.
Raid 2 - cant tell yall how many times I've watched this one. fantastic and visceral choreography with outstanding camerawork. not spoilery, no major character deaths, just top henchmen.
This post was edited on 9/8/15 at 10:16 pm
Posted on 9/8/15 at 10:17 pm to abellsujr
quote:
I think the shaky camera shows the chaotic nature of the fight scene
a common defense. Raid 1 and Raid 2 are pure chaos and still maintain fluidity. the camera gets shaky at times because many of the fights are in cramped hallways and there are so many extras coming from so many directions. big difference between moving a handheld camera to accommodate actors in a small area and moving it all over the place just to hide your shitty work. Bourne is always just two guys and it's always shitty cinematically. when he does do the rare midrange shot, the camera is jerking violently for no reason. Greengrass' style is insufferable
quote:
Just my opinion.
and the OP is just mine
This post was edited on 9/8/15 at 10:21 pm
Posted on 9/8/15 at 10:27 pm to Carson123987
quote:Fair enough. I think the Bourne movies started a fighting style and speed that was new and is implemented a lot today. For that I give it credit. I do agree that the shaky camera was a little much at times, though. And I think movies have improved on the technique since then.
a common defense. Raid 1 and Raid 2 are pure chaos and still maintain fluidity. the camera gets shaky at times because many of the fights are in cramped hallways and there are so many extras coming from so many directions. Bourne is always just two guys and it's always shitty. when he does do the rare midrange shot, the camera is jerking violently for no reason. Greengrass' style is insufferable
Posted on 9/8/15 at 10:48 pm to Carson123987
the biggest issue with H2H combat is that you lose an understanding of the placement of the people in the fight
First of Legend has one of the best fight scenes in terms of camera placement of all time
First of Legend has one of the best fight scenes in terms of camera placement of all time
Posted on 9/8/15 at 10:56 pm to Carson123987
Most modern films. There were a few good years of solid action choreography. And some unheralded gems out there was well. See the recent Predators for example.
Agree and disagree on this. While I agree that this should compose most fight sequences, this is mostly determined by the participants in the scene and the setting. You aren't going to get a great wide range shot in a close quarters environment unless you pull away to something abnormal for the film. It just depends. Good action sequences take into account the stage as well, and making sure to frame things correctly.
Some of the straight up hardest scenes to shoot in film, but also the ones that 90% people will never be able to tell the good from the bad. So, good thrad.
I think I threw up in my mouth.
Jump cuts and close ups, I really hate this kind of fight editing. Like You say above, Greengrass' technique is insufferable.
The funny thing about Luc Besson being involved in Taken is that The Fifth Element, among others that he produced have very well done fight sequences. Whoever started shaky cam fight stinks.
Case in point, Christopher Nolan has no idea how to film a fight sequence so he went and took that idea and sucked at that too.
No one should laugh, regardless of the overall quality, All of the Matrix films are top notch action movies in terms of skillful composition.
Agree on all of the above.
Taking this a little otherwordly, I'm going to throw in the X2 opening: LINK
No one has gotten something like teleportation so right. It's completely disorienting in a good way, as the editing and panning make you feel like a lost guard. You know where you are, but never know where Nightcrawler comes from.
Another one is 13 Assassins, LINK
The end of the film is a nearly 30 minute action sequence. What I like about it is the unorthodox usage of front to back orientation rather than left to right, and it's done exquisitely, And there's a feeling on constant pressure form the endless horde towards the camera until the end. Well done and unique.
Both kind of speak to the above, that a good action sequence isn't filmed one way, a good editor and cinematographer will seek to put the viewer "in the action" and that's done through orienting one within the set as well.
quote:
well-filmed action scenes consist of a mixture of wide and mid-range framing, with a nice balance of stationary shots and tracking shots. the camera shouldnt be moving back and forth rapidly. in regards to positioning, the combatants should be framed in a way that gives the viewer good spatial awareness and prevents confusion when changing perspectives - they should typically stay on their respective sides in the shots.
Agree and disagree on this. While I agree that this should compose most fight sequences, this is mostly determined by the participants in the scene and the setting. You aren't going to get a great wide range shot in a close quarters environment unless you pull away to something abnormal for the film. It just depends. Good action sequences take into account the stage as well, and making sure to frame things correctly.
Some of the straight up hardest scenes to shoot in film, but also the ones that 90% people will never be able to tell the good from the bad. So, good thrad.
quote:
Catwoman - Laugh all you want, but the following examples are no different
I think I threw up in my mouth.
quote:
Bourne
Taken (1:11 is a gem)
Jump cuts and close ups, I really hate this kind of fight editing. Like You say above, Greengrass' technique is insufferable.
The funny thing about Luc Besson being involved in Taken is that The Fifth Element, among others that he produced have very well done fight sequences. Whoever started shaky cam fight stinks.
Case in point, Christopher Nolan has no idea how to film a fight sequence so he went and took that idea and sucked at that too.
quote:
Matrix Reloaded
Matrix Reloaded - 2
Yall may laugh at this one too, but when Wachowskis & Co aren't animating fights and trying to sound smarter than they really are, they really knew how to film a fight scene (I can speak for Matrix, haven't seen their other stuff). the average shot length is a few seconds, good placement and framing. The 2nd clip is really shot, but look at the way Morpheus and the Twins are framed and look at how much they accomplish in that one very short shot while Trinity is getting the car. that's good stuff
No one should laugh, regardless of the overall quality, All of the Matrix films are top notch action movies in terms of skillful composition.
quote:
John Wick - the board favorite, this scene kicks arse. very fluid and well-choreographed (shooting style is Center-Axis Relock for those interested in learning more)
Hero - a masterclass in fight choreography. satisfies all of the criteria I listed above. incredible work
Raid 2 - cant tell yall how many times I've watched this one. fantastic and visceral choreography with outstanding camerawork. not spoilery, no major character deaths, just top henchmen.
Children of Men - Car scene Famous one that everyone knows about, but it doesnt make it any less great. spoilery death, but KYS if you haven't seen this already
Heat - nuff said. also KYS if you havent seen this either. all of Mann's movies have phenomenal cinematography and the sound editing is perfect. the guns all sound exactly as they should
The Revenant trailer pay attention to :48 and 1:45. so much going on while still maintaining beauty and harmony. so smooth
Agree on all of the above.
Taking this a little otherwordly, I'm going to throw in the X2 opening: LINK
No one has gotten something like teleportation so right. It's completely disorienting in a good way, as the editing and panning make you feel like a lost guard. You know where you are, but never know where Nightcrawler comes from.
Another one is 13 Assassins, LINK
The end of the film is a nearly 30 minute action sequence. What I like about it is the unorthodox usage of front to back orientation rather than left to right, and it's done exquisitely, And there's a feeling on constant pressure form the endless horde towards the camera until the end. Well done and unique.
Both kind of speak to the above, that a good action sequence isn't filmed one way, a good editor and cinematographer will seek to put the viewer "in the action" and that's done through orienting one within the set as well.
Posted on 9/8/15 at 10:57 pm to Carson123987
The Asian martial arts movies are really good at cinematography. I think that's what I like about them. A few favorites
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Bamboo forest fight scene. Say what you will about the movie, but it is beautifully shot.
Ip Man 1 vs 10 fight. Ip Man is almost always center frame, there's even a few shots where we can see him surrounded to show how outnumbered he is.
Chocolate Final fight scene. All the top down and bottom up shots give you a good sense of how insane this scene really is.
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Bamboo forest fight scene. Say what you will about the movie, but it is beautifully shot.
Ip Man 1 vs 10 fight. Ip Man is almost always center frame, there's even a few shots where we can see him surrounded to show how outnumbered he is.
Chocolate Final fight scene. All the top down and bottom up shots give you a good sense of how insane this scene really is.
This post was edited on 6/26/18 at 10:13 am
Posted on 9/8/15 at 11:37 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Agree and disagree on this. While I agree that this should compose most fight sequences, this is mostly determined by the participants in the scene and the setting. You aren't going to get a great wide range shot in a close quarters environment unless you pull away to something abnormal for the film. It just depends. Good action sequences take into account the stage as well, and making sure to frame things correctly.
Certainly. It's definitely situational, I just wanted to stress how bad close ups are. Can't do super wide shots in a movie like the raid haha
Posted on 9/8/15 at 11:38 pm to Brosef Stalin
quote:
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Bamboo forest fight scene. Say what you will about the movie, but it is beautifully shot.
Meant to include in OP. I think I preferred crouching tiger to Hero. It wasn't as self-indulgent
Posted on 9/9/15 at 12:07 am to Carson123987
Enjoyed this scene in Skyfall. Thought Deakins handled it well.
Posted on 9/9/15 at 12:35 am to Carson123987
Oldboy Corridor Scene
Classic. Beautifully shot. I don't know much about the technical aspects of this stuff, but to my untrained eye Oldboy is probably the most beautifully shot movie I've ever seen.
Classic. Beautifully shot. I don't know much about the technical aspects of this stuff, but to my untrained eye Oldboy is probably the most beautifully shot movie I've ever seen.
Posted on 9/9/15 at 12:44 am to Peazey
Almost included it too.
Posted on 9/9/15 at 7:19 am to Carson123987
The hallway fight scene from Daredevil just entranced me the first time I watched it. It still does.
LINK
You really feel every punch and kick, and you feel his exhaustion from start to finish. It's shot so well and choreographed so splendidly.
LINK
You really feel every punch and kick, and you feel his exhaustion from start to finish. It's shot so well and choreographed so splendidly.
Posted on 9/9/15 at 7:52 am to Carson123987
quote:
Heat - nuff said. also KYS if you havent seen this either. all of Mann's movies have phenomenal cinematography and the sound editing is perfect. the guns all sound exactly as they should
One of my favorite battle scenes in a movie and is also from Michael Mann... the sound and scene when the muskets begin to go off is awesome.
Last of the Mohicans Ambush Battle
Posted on 9/9/15 at 7:54 am to Carson123987
Can we talk about starting threads with "Let's talk about _____"?
Posted on 9/9/15 at 8:08 am to Carson123987
The good ones just shake the camera around and make 40 cuts per minute to really make you feel like you are in the action. You just see random flashes of knees...fists...elbows...the ground...but it really is visceral.
Posted on 9/9/15 at 8:51 am to Carson123987
I like wide those big panoramic nature shots. Crouching Tiger has lots of those with a fight going on at the same time. Its awesome. Hero has some great scenes too. I think I prefer more realistic fighting over the flying around stuff, but those flying movies tend to have great cinematography.
Posted on 9/9/15 at 8:59 am to Brosef Stalin
quote:
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Bamboo forest fight scene. Say what you will about the movie, but it is beautifully shot.
Every fight scene in that film is fantastic.
Posted on 9/9/15 at 9:09 am to Freauxzen
really good directors are often great at filming action scenes (assuming they're not cashing a check and care about the film)
skyfall had some great establishment shots and medium shots that really gave you a feel for the scene, as another example
skyfall had some great establishment shots and medium shots that really gave you a feel for the scene, as another example
Posted on 9/9/15 at 9:51 am to Carson123987
Carson. Nice post. I also don't care for the quick, jerky, 1-second frame edits in most fight scenes today. They do this to save money and time. bottom line.
Wide shots are very time consuming and require serious lighting. Also, if you do a shot where u can really see what's going on it exposes how bad it looks.
Back in the old days they would bring in stunt crew and work on a fight for a week. That's not feasible for production companies anymore and they really don't care about the product, they just care about the return.
Wide shots are very time consuming and require serious lighting. Also, if you do a shot where u can really see what's going on it exposes how bad it looks.
Back in the old days they would bring in stunt crew and work on a fight for a week. That's not feasible for production companies anymore and they really don't care about the product, they just care about the return.
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