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re: Godfather II question
Posted on 8/26/14 at 9:39 pm to Methuselah
Posted on 8/26/14 at 9:39 pm to Methuselah
Sonny was first born and a Very competent war-time don.. In the books he led the family after the Don took a hit and he was badass! not one for the long game, but in the short game, he will destroy you.
Michael was a Long game man.
Fredo was a victim to his own weakness and jealousy. His bitches even bossed him around.
Michael was a Long game man.
Fredo was a victim to his own weakness and jealousy. His bitches even bossed him around.
0
Posted on 8/26/14 at 10:03 pm to Spock's Eyebrow
quote:
"Tessio was always smarter."
I never got that line. If Tessio were "smarter", he would've known the one attempting to broker the sitdown would've been perceived as the traitor. More ambitious than fat Clemenza, maybe, but definitely not "smarter" in any sense that I understand the word.
It's hard to say because we don't get shown a whole lot of Clemenza between the very early years and the later years. Same for Tessio really.
Either way, I don't think either one of them were on the level of Vitto or Michael. Both were competent Capos but not the very top level. Which is why Vitto ended up the boss even though Clemenza (and I'm pretty sure Tessio) had been in crime before him.
Posted on 8/26/14 at 10:53 pm to abellsujr
quote:
Sonny should never have been in charge. He was too hot tempered.
And their father knew this. Michael was always the anointed one in Vito's eyes. The rightful heir to his empire. He just refused the crown for a while.
Posted on 8/26/14 at 11:06 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
quote: I think he just knew the gig was up and there was no way he was getting out of it. He resigned himself to face his death with what dignity he could. Hence the praying the Hail Mary.
I think it definitely dawned on him when they came out and got Michael's son.
This has always been my view.
This post was edited on 8/26/14 at 11:07 pm
Posted on 8/26/14 at 11:07 pm to Spock's Eyebrow
quote:
"Tessio was always smarter."
I never got that line. If Tessio were "smarter", he would've known the one attempting to broker the sitdown would've been perceived as the traitor. More ambitious than fat Clemenza, maybe, but definitely not "smarter" in any sense that I understand the word.
I think he meant it almost as an insult, like someone who was always working the angles or fancied himself a player/strategist while Clemenza was more comfortable with who he was.
Posted on 8/26/14 at 11:10 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
And their father knew this. Michael was always the anointed one in Vito's eyes. The rightful heir to his empire. He just refused the crown for a while.
Except that Vito never wanted the mob life for Michael.
Posted on 8/26/14 at 11:15 pm to Methuselah
They were related also.
Posted on 8/26/14 at 11:18 pm to Methuselah
Tessio was smarter but he underestimated Michael. Michael was the wild card none of them knew.
Posted on 8/26/14 at 11:21 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
And their father knew this. Michael was always the anointed one in Vito's eyes. The rightful heir to his empire. He just refused the crown for a while.
Wrong.
Posted on 8/26/14 at 11:38 pm to Spock's Eyebrow
He means Tessio was trying to make a deal with Barzini to keep his area/rank/whatever when the Barzini folks (and the other families) tried to make a move on The Dons businesses.
He sets up Michael, he's a made guy with the next family in power.
Even Clemenza said if Vito died and Michael moved out, they'd (he and Tessio) would come under Barzini's thumb..."and I hate that god damn Barzini." Clemenza wanted to try and go out on his own, Tessio wanted the Barzini protection.
He sets up Michael, he's a made guy with the next family in power.
Even Clemenza said if Vito died and Michael moved out, they'd (he and Tessio) would come under Barzini's thumb..."and I hate that god damn Barzini." Clemenza wanted to try and go out on his own, Tessio wanted the Barzini protection.
Posted on 8/26/14 at 11:47 pm to NIH
Fredo knew after his mom died Michael would have him killed, that's why he tried to make up with him at her funeral. I think he already had an idea what was up when Al, of all people, was taking he and Michaels boy fishing. If he didn't, he certainly knew when they called the sin back in.
Heck, he had to know it was coming. He ran off in Cuba after Michael realized he set him up at the Tahoe compound.
Heck, he had to know it was coming. He ran off in Cuba after Michael realized he set him up at the Tahoe compound.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:05 am to Methuselah
quote:
Frankie of course went the extra step. He killed himself. (Of course he had to so that his family would be taken care of).
Which doesn't happen IRL. When your usefulenss is at an end, you get thrown under the bus.
Slight digression: The thing that a lot of people miss about GF is that Vito's talk of family honor, and Michael's urbanity notwithstanding, they're both just greaseball shitheads, like all the rest of them.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 1:16 am to CaptainsWafer
These are some interesting comments about the Tessio remark. Michael saw Tessio as the guy who could go out on his own and make a bold move, while Clemenza was more apt to stay Team Corleone and let whatever was to happen, happen.
All the same, it was a dumb move given that Tessio lived all his life with treachery, and he went and made his own Carlo-style amateurish "farce," thinking, like Carlo, he could fool a Corleone. I guess he just had no respect for Michael, and he figured Vito was giving lame counsel all that time he was advising him. Mistake!!!
The key to it all was Vito never revealing to anyone but Michael that Barzini was the real enemy and playing weak and waiting long enough for the other dons to let down their guard.
In a way, I see Tessio as collateral damage of the revenge plot, and it was due to him being "smarter". That sucks, but it's one of many examples of what shitty people they all really are, ready to turn on each other after many years of loyal friendship, despite all their delusions of "family".
All the same, it was a dumb move given that Tessio lived all his life with treachery, and he went and made his own Carlo-style amateurish "farce," thinking, like Carlo, he could fool a Corleone. I guess he just had no respect for Michael, and he figured Vito was giving lame counsel all that time he was advising him. Mistake!!!
The key to it all was Vito never revealing to anyone but Michael that Barzini was the real enemy and playing weak and waiting long enough for the other dons to let down their guard. In a way, I see Tessio as collateral damage of the revenge plot, and it was due to him being "smarter". That sucks, but it's one of many examples of what shitty people they all really are, ready to turn on each other after many years of loyal friendship, despite all their delusions of "family".
Posted on 8/27/14 at 5:04 am to NIH
Well, Michael did "forgive" him
As far as Fredo knew, everything was all hunky dory
As far as Fredo knew, everything was all hunky dory
Posted on 8/27/14 at 7:17 am to Spock's Eyebrow
After all, it was only business.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 7:38 am to CaptainsWafer
Great comments here. Reminds me how much I love these movies. They are so layered with meaning/depth. Every line/scene tells another part of the story.
As for Fredo, I pitied him. Michael should have shown mercy and forgiven him, taken him out of the business, and just taken care of him. Connie was right about Fredo. He was weak and sad by that point. He was no longer a threat. Michael was not just trying to protect his family at that point - he wanted revenge.
This is why Michael is so distraught in Godfather III with the bishop. He realizes his error and it has been eating at him all these years. He killed his mother's son. He was wrong and he knew it and had to live with it. At the end, his goal of saving his family ultimately destroyed it. He was not his Pop. He was not loved. He was dreaded, as Kay said.
Mercy has to be a component of leadership. Vito understood that. Remember how he struck a truce with the other Dons after Sonny's murder? He rejected vengeance so that Michael could return to the United States. His ultimate goal was the protection of his family, not vengeance. Michael's goals were mixed, at least until Godfather III when he became more like his father. But, by then, it was too late. The sins of his past kept hounding him until his own daughter was taken.
Godfather III is criticized (and I understand why), but it was still a great movie that brought the story forward to its conclusion.
As for Fredo, I pitied him. Michael should have shown mercy and forgiven him, taken him out of the business, and just taken care of him. Connie was right about Fredo. He was weak and sad by that point. He was no longer a threat. Michael was not just trying to protect his family at that point - he wanted revenge.
This is why Michael is so distraught in Godfather III with the bishop. He realizes his error and it has been eating at him all these years. He killed his mother's son. He was wrong and he knew it and had to live with it. At the end, his goal of saving his family ultimately destroyed it. He was not his Pop. He was not loved. He was dreaded, as Kay said.
Mercy has to be a component of leadership. Vito understood that. Remember how he struck a truce with the other Dons after Sonny's murder? He rejected vengeance so that Michael could return to the United States. His ultimate goal was the protection of his family, not vengeance. Michael's goals were mixed, at least until Godfather III when he became more like his father. But, by then, it was too late. The sins of his past kept hounding him until his own daughter was taken.
Godfather III is criticized (and I understand why), but it was still a great movie that brought the story forward to its conclusion.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 8:09 am to AlaTiger
If your brother assisted in your assassination attempt, could you forgive him and provide a living for him?
I couldn't.
I don't know if if have him whacked tho.
I couldn't.
I don't know if if have him whacked tho.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 8:47 am to CaptainsWafer
I probably would have just exiled Fredo, I don't know that you can ever really recover morally from having your brother murdered.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 8:51 am to Spock's Eyebrow
In the book Vito predicted how Michael would be betrayed after his death because he had pulled a similar move on the Don he had faced in the war they had in the 30s. They had ate away at that Don's org and when he was ready to make peace one of his capos offered to provide security at the meeting, who then abandoned his Don and let Tessio and his men murder the guy.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 8:56 am to AlaTiger
quote:
Great comments here. Reminds me how much I love these movies. They are so layered with meaning/depth. Every line/scene tells another part of the story.
As for Fredo, I pitied him. Michael should have shown mercy and forgiven him, taken him out of the business, and just taken care of him. Connie was right about Fredo. He was weak and sad by that point. He was no longer a threat. Michael was not just trying to protect his family at that point - he wanted revenge.
This is why Michael is so distraught in Godfather III with the bishop. He realizes his error and it has been eating at him all these years. He killed his mother's son. He was wrong and he knew it and had to live with it. At the end, his goal of saving his family ultimately destroyed it. He was not his Pop. He was not loved. He was dreaded, as Kay said.
Mercy has to be a component of leadership. Vito understood that. Remember how he struck a truce with the other Dons after Sonny's murder? He rejected vengeance so that Michael could return to the United States. His ultimate goal was the protection of his family, not vengeance. Michael's goals were mixed, at least until Godfather III when he became more like his father. But, by then, it was too late. The sins of his past kept hounding him until his own daughter was taken.
Godfather III is criticized (and I understand why), but it was still a great movie that brought the story forward to its conclusion.
This. Excellent analysis.
And Fredo unwittingly participated in Michael's assassination attempt. He was tricked and thought he was actually doing something good for the family. He didn't know they were going to try to kill Michael.
Michael could have, and should have, simply banished Fredo from the family business. I would have shipped him off to Sicily to live out his days comfortably in seclusion.
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