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re: Game of Thrones S5E6 "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" (Book readers Only) No Hodors!
Posted on 5/22/15 at 10:44 am to aggressor
Posted on 5/22/15 at 10:44 am to aggressor
If she had resisted, it would have been far worse. Maybe she knew that. If Ramsey thinks she is weak, he is more prone to getting shanked.
0
Posted on 5/22/15 at 10:45 am to aggressor
quote:
essentially that she is manipulating Ramsay to think she is weak when she is just plotting her revenge.
Except that she is weak... and in ASOIAF the weak are abused, killed, and/or manipulated by those with power.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 10:59 am to aggressor
quote:
The Show goes and takes Sansa to Winterfell and allows her to become this stronger character, complete with scenes in that episode showing that development. Then it shows her becoming a scared and weak girl who has lost all control over her situation and allows herself to be abused.
I saw it more as showing she wasn't suddenly some power player. Earlier in the episode you have her smack down Myranda's hip bones with her words and it's like, ok, she gets it. Then at the end, as she realizes "Damn this dude really is crazy", shite is real and she's unable to act, likely for the better.
Another spin is that she accepted that it's the right way to approach it to let it be for now.
From what we saw in the preview with her talking to Theon about having friends in the north, you can assume she starts taking action next episode. That's not what the weak girl Sansa with no control would do.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 11:01 am to LSUGrad00
At this point in the Show and the Books she is not weak at all. In the Show she is showing strength at dinner with the Boltons and with Ramsay's side piece. She is very controlled compared to what she was in seasons past.
I agree that once she was in the room with Ramsay the sex was going to happen. The question was how it was going to happen and how she was going to react. I just didn't understand her suddenly becoming shocked that Ramsay was going to be a psycho. Either she should have been the aggressor in some way showing she was ready or certainly not afraid of him or she should have allowed it to happen and made Ramsay think she was scared and weak but actually she was conning him. The way they handled it essentially threw out 4 seasons of character development and wasn't creative.
I guess I am most irritated by the "Sansa is now Jeyne Poole so it makes sense she was raped" logic.
I agree that once she was in the room with Ramsay the sex was going to happen. The question was how it was going to happen and how she was going to react. I just didn't understand her suddenly becoming shocked that Ramsay was going to be a psycho. Either she should have been the aggressor in some way showing she was ready or certainly not afraid of him or she should have allowed it to happen and made Ramsay think she was scared and weak but actually she was conning him. The way they handled it essentially threw out 4 seasons of character development and wasn't creative.
I guess I am most irritated by the "Sansa is now Jeyne Poole so it makes sense she was raped" logic.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 11:14 am to aggressor
quote:
The Show goes and takes Sansa to Winterfell and allows her to become this stronger character, complete with scenes in that episode showing that development.
See I think a lot of people are giving her too much credit in regards to just how strong she actually was up to that point. I mean yeah, she was a lot stronger than the naive little girl from season one, but she was also still being manipulated by LF when he brought her back to Winterfell. And it's one thing to stand up to a kennel girl who has no real power, but it is a whole other thing to stand up to someone as deranged as Ramsey who actually has the power to do some outrageous stuff to her if he feels froggy.
quote:
Then it shows her becoming a scared and weak girl who has lost all control over her situation and allows herself to be abused.
She really didn't allow herself to be abused, she didn't have any choice in that matter. And it wasn't like she was in all out tears. She knew that Ramsey would be taking her virginity on their wedding night (that was the whole point of the kennel girl bathing her). Now Ramsey throwing Theon into the mix was a definite surprise, which is what threw her off her game. I think up to that point she was willing to go through with it (although she did hesitate at the wedding), but when Ramsey went full psycho on her it all of a sudden became real to her (and she realized he could end up doing anything he wanted to her). So yeah she whimpered when he told her to bend over, but she took it without struggling.
I don't think the writers have done her character a disservice when it comes to building her up, to then just make her revert back to her old ways. She had grown a great deal since season 1, but she hadn't completed her growth yet. But I bet by then end of this season she will be as strong as some seemed to thing she was before the season started. That wedding night will be the crucible that fulfills her growth.
This post was edited on 5/22/15 at 11:15 am
Posted on 5/22/15 at 11:17 am to aggressor
quote:
I just didn't understand her suddenly becoming shocked that Ramsay was going to be a psycho.
Well, he had been very controlled around her leading up to the wedding. What was she supposed to do? Was she supposed to try to kill him at the moment of orgasm Sand Snake style? She couldn't exactly avoid being in that room on her wedding night. He finally showed his crazy and she complied. However, I see that being the galvanizing force that will make her become the strong character we have seen glimpses of her potentially becoming.
I didn't have a problem with the scene.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 11:24 am to aggressor
quote:
Is Sansa "Sansa" or is she Jeyne Poole? The 2 characters are very different and having her shift back and forth doesn't make sense.
The show is not the book. There is no Jeyne Poole. Sansa is Sansa. Accept it.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 11:35 am to chryso
Just as Ellaria is Arienne... 
I was really looking forward to her...plot
I was really looking forward to her...plot
Posted on 5/22/15 at 12:01 pm to chryso
quote:
quote:
Is Sansa "Sansa" or is she Jeyne Poole? The 2 characters are very different and having her shift back and forth doesn't make sense.
The show is not the book. There is no Jeyne Poole. Sansa is Sansa. Accept it.
That's my point. I have accepted it but the Show changed her character because Jeyne Poole gets raped on her wedding night. I just don't buy that Sansa would act the same way as Jeyne and that is what they have done.
As I also mentioned, I didn't expect Sansa to pull out a knife and kill Ramsay. What I did expect was for her to be ready for the situation and to take control of it. She could take control by actually being aggressive sexually with Ramsay which would have thrown him off his game and shown her strength. They could also have shown her acting like she was scared and submissive but under control with rage building as she bides her time for revenge.
That is what Sansa would do. Jeyne Poole was the weak and naive girl that had no choice but to take whatever Ramsay wanted to do to her. Sansa did have to have sex with Ramsay but she also has significant power. She knows the Bolton's need her and that with her in Winterfell the Banners of the North are far more loyal to her than to the Boltons and the Boltons (at least Roose if not Ramsay) knows that as well. Abusing Sansa or killing her really isn't smart because it turns the other Houses against the Boltons. They need for those Houses to believe Sansa is willing.
As it is they will probably have Sansa shift from being the weak "Jeyne Poole" Sansa to the stronger "Sansa" Sansa they have built over the Show and just hope people don't notice. That makes it unpredictable but for the wrong reasons.
Of course the Show seems to be throwing out logic all the time now anyway with characters not only doing different things than the books but doing different things than the character profile they have built for them in the Show. It's just disappointing when they could do a lot more.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 12:49 pm to aggressor
I'm really not seeing a wholly positive outcome for Sansa. I don't really think she will stay weak and put upon but I've been leaning more towards an unhinged and kind of unfocused "revenge" outcome ala Lady Stoneheart.
Or maybe just maybe we can get some Frey pie through her storyline.
Though to be honest, at this point I would settle for transplanting the Arya "Weasel Soup" storyline from Harrenhall for Sansa to have a major part in. Maybe Pod can become a kitchen worker and Sansa can orchestrate it through him.
Or maybe just maybe we can get some Frey pie through her storyline.
Though to be honest, at this point I would settle for transplanting the Arya "Weasel Soup" storyline from Harrenhall for Sansa to have a major part in. Maybe Pod can become a kitchen worker and Sansa can orchestrate it through him.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:07 pm to Methuselah
quote:That could be it. They're going to abuse and torment her so much that she just goes cold and "sonehearted." It's definitely plausible, based on what's happened to her both in the books and on the show.
I'm really not seeing a wholly positive outcome for Sansa. I don't really think she will stay weak and put upon but I've been leaning more towards an unhinged and kind of unfocused "revenge" outcome ala Lady Stoneheart.
I'd be okay with it.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:07 pm to aggressor
quote:
As I also mentioned, I didn't expect Sansa to pull out a knife and kill Ramsay. What I did expect was for her to be ready for the situation and to take control of it. She could take control by actually being aggressive sexually with Ramsay which would have thrown him off his game and shown her strength. They could also have shown her acting like she was scared and submissive but under control with rage building as she bides her time for revenge.
This assumes the scene is meant to advance Sansa's character and I dont think it is.
IMO the scene is not about Sansa and what she's going through as much as it's building to Theon/Reek finally regaining the strength to stand up to/disobey Ramsey.
The transformation from the broken man who crawled back in his cage when his sister came to rescue him to someone who will disobey Ramsey and help Sansa. Thats why the camera focus was on him and not her.
They had no issue showing Cersei's face when Jamie raped her. One would assume if the scene was about Sansa they would have done the same.
quote:
That is what Sansa would do.
based on what? You are giving her WAY too much credit for her only scene of 'strength' in which she stands up to a base born kennel masters daughter. In reality Sansa is still a little bird saying and doing what she is told to. First it was Septa Mordane, then Cersei, now it's LF.
ETA: Odd how when you go back and look at the reviews of the episode where Jamie rapes Cersie ( LINK) some of the critics who are outraged over the scene with Sansa had no real issues with what happened to Cersei.
This post was edited on 5/22/15 at 1:23 pm
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:23 pm to LSUGrad00
It will be hard for me to buy Jon Snow getting the letter and taking off to rescue Sansa later on also. Assuming the show even goes that route.
Part of Jon saying "frick it in going to save my baby sister in Winterfell" was because he thought it was Arya. He has a very special relationship with Arya. He gave her Needle, which is obviously a big deal because she couldn't make herself part with Needle in Braavos.
The fact that it would be Sansa, whom he didn't speak with much and them being two characters that rarely think of each other except when someone brings up bastards around Sansa, is gonna be hard to believe. Jon knows of other bad things that's happened to his family. None of them caused him to act. Once he heard of "Arya" being harmed he snaps. I think there's a reason why Arya sets him off
Part of Jon saying "frick it in going to save my baby sister in Winterfell" was because he thought it was Arya. He has a very special relationship with Arya. He gave her Needle, which is obviously a big deal because she couldn't make herself part with Needle in Braavos.
The fact that it would be Sansa, whom he didn't speak with much and them being two characters that rarely think of each other except when someone brings up bastards around Sansa, is gonna be hard to believe. Jon knows of other bad things that's happened to his family. None of them caused him to act. Once he heard of "Arya" being harmed he snaps. I think there's a reason why Arya sets him off
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:24 pm to LSUGrad00
Cause Cercei wasn't raped. The show poorly executed that scene. Cercei wanted it as much as Jamie did
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:33 pm to Finkle is Einhorn
quote:That never happened. Jeyne had already fled to Castle Black and he knew she wasn't Arya.
Part of Jon saying "frick it in going to save my baby sister in Winterfell" was because he thought it was Arya. He has a very special relationship with Arya. He gave her Needle, which is obviously a big deal because she couldn't make herself part with Needle in Braavos.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:45 pm to blueboy
quote:
That never happened. Jeyne had already fled to Castle Black and he knew she wasn't Arya.
Theon and Jeyne were caught after they escapade Winterfell and brought to Stannis camp.
Both are still there in the Theon chapter from WoW
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:50 pm to Finkle is Einhorn
quote:
Cause Cercei wasn't raped. The show poorly executed that scene. Cercei wanted it as much as Jamie did
Agreed that it was consensual in the books...
IF they were trying to portray that as consensual in the show, then it may be the worst executed scene in the history of television.
I think the writers changed it from consensual to forced for some stupid unknown reason.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 2:17 pm to LSUGrad00
quote:
Theon and Jeyne were caught after they escapade Winterfell and brought to Stannis camp.
He's thinking of Alys Karstark who fled to the Wall to escape her Uncle.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 3:44 pm to LSUGrad00
That's right Jeyne is brought to Stannis' camp with the tip of her nose black from frostbite. Theon tells her she must still pretend to be Arya.
Arya has not been revealed to be a fake to Jon yet.
This is directly after Jon reads the pink letter:
“He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …
“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.”
Arya has not been revealed to be a fake to Jon yet.
This is directly after Jon reads the pink letter:
“He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …
“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.”
This post was edited on 5/22/15 at 4:04 pm
Posted on 5/22/15 at 4:24 pm to Mr. Wayne
quote:Yeah, that's it. I keep getting it mixed up because it was supposed to be Arya or something, according to Mel.
He's thinking of Alys Karstark who fled to the Wall to escape her Uncle.
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