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re: Game of Thrones - S5:E5 - "Kill the Boy" - BOOK READERS
Posted on 5/12/15 at 11:23 am to Tom288
Posted on 5/12/15 at 11:23 am to Tom288
quote:
The more I watch the show the more I think, "frick it, I'm rooting for Stannis."
Stannis is much more likeable in the show than the books IMO. Marching his troops through frigid temperatures and losing that many men seemed too desperate. I see him taking Mel flipping to Jon and him learning that Jon is the rightful heir pretty badly though. As much as he presents himself as mister fairness, he wants to be king to get out from Robert's shadow. Do not expect him to just fall in and follow King Jon Targaryen.
3
Posted on 5/12/15 at 11:54 am to Mr. Wayne
he doesn't have to recognize Jon as the rightful ruler. His brother usurped the Targ throne. He isn't bowing down to Dany and he knows about her.
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:01 pm to saintsfan92612
quote:
he doesn't have to recognize Jon as the rightful ruler. His brother usurped the Targ throne. He isn't bowing down to Dany and he knows about her.
Yes but Mel isn't telling him Dany is Azor Ahai. If she tells him she was mistaken and that Jon is the Prince that was Promised, he's not going to back down IMO. He wants the throne.
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:25 pm to Mr. Wayne
quote:
Yes but Mel isn't telling him Dany is Azor Ahai. If she tells him she was mistaken and that Jon is the Prince that was Promised, he's not going to back down IMO. He wants the throne.
Agreed.
This post was edited on 5/12/15 at 12:37 pm
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:26 pm to ohiovol
I doubt he settles for being Jon's Hand.
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:31 pm to Mr. Wayne
quote:
I see him taking Mel flipping to Jon and him learning that Jon is the rightful heir pretty badly though.
I often see people using the phrase "rightful heir." All of these kingdoms were taken by force. In that scenario the rightful heir is who ever took it last.
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:32 pm to chryso
quote:
I often see people using the phrase "rightful heir." All of these kingdoms were taken by force. In that scenario the rightful heir is who ever took it last.
No, the "rightful" heir is whoever who can take it next.
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:33 pm to Mr. Wayne
quote:He's not currently the rightful heir, and since that would require legitimacy from either Tommen or Stannis, it wouldn't be likely to happen.
learning that Jon is the rightful heir
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:36 pm to blueboy
quote:Not if Rhaegar married Lyanna.
He's not currently the rightful heir, and since that would require legitimacy from either Tommen or Stannis, it wouldn't be likely to happen.
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:39 pm to PsychTiger
quote:
I doubt he settles for being Jon's Hand.
While I agree, in principle, Dany has a stronger claim - she's an actual daughter of Aerys. Jon is, at best, Rhaegar's son - and Rhaeger died before Aerys - so there is no natural flow of the crown. Azor Azhai or not - there may have to be a triumverate - they can all agree that Tommen is the result of Lannister incest and no claim at all. The Baratheons also have Targaryen blood, so that may complicate Stannis' position, further - that blood was used, partially, to justify Robert as King after his rebellion.
But Stannis will do what Stannis thinks is correct - it is just that, right now, he thinks that what he wants is correct - if that changes, Stannis will change, however slowly.
This post was edited on 5/12/15 at 12:40 pm
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:45 pm to ohiovol
quote:
Not if Rhaegar married Lyanna.
And while I think this is true, it may be irrelevant - was there a formal divorce? It was war, but I highly doubt it. If there was, why hasn't there been more word of this? Or is that Elia's death and the death of her children (child?) are so overriding that nobody talks of the divorce?
And another thing - at a certain point, if a Targaryen King with Stark blood emerged (Jon Targaryen), that would bring in virtually 100% of the North, plus the Targ holdouts. Legitimacy is in the eyes of the beholder.
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:47 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Legitimacy is in the eyes of the beholder.
Or the dragon holder.
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:52 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
While I agree, in principle, Dany has a stronger claim - she's an actual daughter of Aerys. Jon is, at best, Rhaegar's son - and Rhaeger died before Aerys - so there is no natural flow of the crown.
I'm pretty sure the line of succession runs through the line of the 1st born male. The 1st born male was Rhaegar, so since Rhaegar's other two children have been killed, Jon (if R+L=J) is next in line. Dany would be SOL if it can be proven that Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's legitimate son.
Now if he is still bastard born with Rhaegar never marrying Lyanna, then it gets way more complicated, and Dany might have a claim.
But regardless, once Dany crosses the Narrow Sea, Stannis' claim is no longer valid (nor is Tommen's, but he never really had a claim since he is fully Lannister). Now they will definitely put up a fight, so if they were to defeat Dany in battle, and kill her (and Jon if it is revealed that R+L=J), then Stannis would then have the claim.
This post was edited on 5/12/15 at 12:54 pm
Posted on 5/12/15 at 12:58 pm to Bamatab
Stannis's claim is still valid for those who recognize the Baratheon line.
This post was edited on 5/12/15 at 12:58 pm
Posted on 5/12/15 at 1:03 pm to ohiovol
The only reason that the Baratheon line was recognized was because there were no more Targaryens left in Westeros (I'm guessing very few even knew there were two Targaryens even left in the world).
This post was edited on 5/12/15 at 1:04 pm
Posted on 5/12/15 at 1:04 pm to Bamatab
quote:
But regardless, once Dany crosses the Narrow Sea, Stannis' claim is no longer valid
I don't see how - he is the elder brother of the previous king - if he admits they were usurpers, then he never had a claim at all.
When you take on a king and kill him, his heir apparent and try (but fail) to kill all his children - you don't then tell the surviving children, "Sorry about that. My bad. Here, let me bend this knee for you."
The question for the smallfolk will be - "Do you want the maybe crazy/maybe not daughter of Aerys the Mad, with 3 dragons, hard/brittle as iron brother of the Whoring King, Stannis with the red witch sidekick, or the love child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, who just saved us all from the Others and their army of the dead as monarch?"
I think that's the final calculus.
(Which is why the marriage between Jon and Dany becomes more likely - "A Song of Ice and Fire")
This post was edited on 5/12/15 at 1:06 pm
Posted on 5/12/15 at 1:11 pm to Bamatab
quote:
if it can be proven that Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's legitimate son.
Now if he is still bastard born with Rhaegar never marrying Lyanna, then it gets way more complicated, and Dany might have a claim.
But regardless, once Dany crosses the Narrow Sea, Stannis' claim is no longer valid (nor is Tommen's, but he never really had a claim since he is fully Lannister). Now they will definitely put up a fight, so if they were to defeat Dany in battle, and kill her (and Jon if it is revealed that R+L=J), then Stannis would then have the claim.
Maury Povich with a DNA test kit would be the most powerful man in Westeros
Posted on 5/12/15 at 1:17 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
if he admits they were usurpers,
But he was a usurper. Robert overthrew the ruling family, and attempted (well him and Tywin) to wipe out anyone with a claim to the Iron Throne (which happen to be all of the known Targaryens). We are talking about the claim to the Iron Throne, which was the symbol of the beginning of the Targaryen Dynasty.
quote:
(Which is why the marriage between Jon and Dany becomes more likely - "A Song of Ice and Fire")
Agreed. Dany with her dragons and army from the east, paired up with Jon with the Wildlings and the Northern army would be almost impossible to stand up to.
I've always felt that the logic end game is for Dany to gain control of the land south of the Neck, and Jon to gain control of the North, and the two of them to align in order to fight the White Walkers. But we are talking about a story written by GRRM, so there stands a good chance of the logical end game not playing out.
Posted on 5/12/15 at 1:20 pm to Supravol22
Looks like Mormont either cuts off his lower arm or turns into a Stone Man?
Posted on 5/12/15 at 1:25 pm to ohiovol
quote:How could he marry Lyanna if he was already married to Elia? THe only scenario I could see is that Elia is killed by Gregor, they hear about it at the Tower and marry before Jon is born. I don't know the sequence of events too well, but I'm not sure that's even possible.
Not if Rhaegar married Lyanna.
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