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re: MNF: Calling out Tyson Jackson and Glenn Dorsey
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:27 pm to Powerman
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:27 pm to Powerman
They were never going to fit into a 3-4. It's a result of the system more so then anything. If they added another DE and pushed Dorsey inside(stopping the run) then they would be much much better.
1
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:29 pm to Powerman
quote:
Well they're starting so it's not like they are complete busts
They are more "disappointments" than busts. Busts are players that offer absolutely nothing relative to their draft position. Disappointments are contributors or starters that may not have fulfilled their draft value, but offers some value to the team.
quote:
And really the only criticism was that they weren't generating a pass rush. They seem to hold up well against the run
That's the thing though, you can't have 1 dimensional players anymore, it's not college. Even in 34 defenses, the outside lineman are expected to bring more to the table than gap control and runstopping...
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:33 pm to MagillaGuerilla
quote:
That's the thing though, you can't have 1 dimensional players anymore, it's not college. Even in 34 defenses, the outside lineman are expected to bring more to the table than gap control and runstopping...
Right. But in a 3-4 system you're relying on tweener players at the OLB positions to be your pass rush. You're not expecting 3-4 ends to have double digit sack seasons.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:35 pm to CajunFootball
quote:
They were never going to fit into a 3-4. It's a result of the system more so then anything.
Tyson Jackson was ranked as the top 34 DE in the Draft, it's not like they drafted him with the intent of him being one. Dorsey, on the other hand, was drafted to a 43 D under Herm Edwards, then forced outside when Haley came in.
quote:
If they added another DE and pushed Dorsey inside(stopping the run) then they would be much much better.
They tried that when Haley got there, didn't work...
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:40 pm to MagillaGuerilla
One year does not really show anything. It takes time for players to get used to a system. Besides what factor makes them a bust? Other then sacks they have done more then a lot of DE's in the league.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:41 pm to Mephistopheles
quote:
There is a reason John Gruden is watching the game and not coaching.
If I got paid all that phat cash to commentate one prime time game per week I'd pass up any coaching job out there.
Work smarter, not harder.
This post was edited on 11/1/11 at 3:42 pm
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:45 pm to Powerman
quote:
But in a 3-4 system you're relying on tweener players at the OLB positions to be your pass rush.
Correct.
quote:
You're not expecting 3-4 ends to have double digit sack seasons.
Never said that.
It's not about sack totals, but they are expected to get pressure too. It's being a complete player, if you can't do what this kid in the draft can do, but he can already do what you do, what stops them from drafting him and replacing you?
Shaun Ellis played the same 34 D that they currently do, and he excelled at gap control, runstopping, and was disruptive on the line. Haloti Ngata doesn't put up gaudy numbers, but he's known as one of the most disruptive lineman in the league and the Ravens pay him as such.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:45 pm to hashtag
Dorsey and Jackson were both drafted before the coaching change if I remember right
Dorsey could be Kyle Williams in Buffalo
He could be a good fit for Saints as well
Jackson was probably drafted higher than he should have been
I did not think Bowe would be as succesful as he's been
Dorsey could be Kyle Williams in Buffalo
He could be a good fit for Saints as well
Jackson was probably drafted higher than he should have been
I did not think Bowe would be as succesful as he's been
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:46 pm to CajunFootball
quote:
One year does not really show anything. It takes time for players to get used to a system.
You can figure out pretty quickly who can play NG and who can't, that's why they are so hard to find.
quote:
Besides what factor makes them a bust? Other then sacks they have done more then a lot of DE's in the league.
I never called them busts...
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:47 pm to BlowTideBlow
I agree with everyone saying Dorsey should not be a 3-4 defensive end, however coming out I thought Jackson would be the prototypical 3-4 DE. I thought that is what elevated his draft status to top 5.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 3:47 pm to MagillaGuerilla
They make tackles and stop the run. They're going to disrupt plays, but they're not going to be the next hall of fame linemen. Those are few and far between. Their not bust or disappointments because they're doing their jobs soundly. Could they be better? Yeah...I guess they could but that doesn't mean they're not good.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 4:00 pm to CajunFootball
quote:
They make tackles and stop the run.
So does Mike Devito of the Jets.
Never heard of him? Rightfully so. He was an undrafted FA agent out of Maine, yet he graded out as the best runstopping 34 lineman in the entire NFL last year.
And the Jets still want to replace him because he doesn't contribute outside of runstopping...
quote:
Their not bust or disappointments because they're doing their jobs soundly.
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 4:13 pm to MagillaGuerilla
So I guess the Texans better cut Arian Foster and all. People who go undrafted or drafted late(Brady) are always going to come up and be stars just like high draft picks(Leaf, Russell) are going to bust. Devito can't be a bust because he wasn't drafted, just like Russell was expected to be a franchise Qb.
If you don't think they are doing their jobs then you're a fool. They might not produce the highest numbers, but I don't see the KC trying to get rid of either of them. They produce 40 tackles a season each. I'll take that from my d-line any day.
If you don't think they are doing their jobs then you're a fool. They might not produce the highest numbers, but I don't see the KC trying to get rid of either of them. They produce 40 tackles a season each. I'll take that from my d-line any day.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 4:31 pm to CajunFootball
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I guess the Texans better cut Arian Foster and all. People who go undrafted or drafted late(Brady) are always going to come up and be stars just like high draft picks(Leaf, Russell) are going to bust. Devito can't be a bust because he wasn't drafted, just like Russell was expected to be a franchise Qb.
If you don't think they are doing their jobs then you're a fool. They might not produce the highest numbers, but I don't see the KC trying to get rid of either of them. They produce 40 tackles a season each. I'll take that from my d-line any day.
A bust is stricktly defined by his draft position imo. Its not a term used to describe how servicable a player is.
Foster, Brady cant possibly be busts. They dont fit the definition. Dorsey and Jackson are busts just because of the picks (money) used to obtain them. If they were taken in the late second or third round they would be considered good values.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 4:45 pm to death valley driver
quote:
try watching less independent arthouse movies and more football if you WANT to post on the MSB. if you can't then take your beret wearing arse down the street
I had planned to read À la Recherche du Temps Perdu sipping on a tasteful rosé, but after your post I'm gonna open a 12 pack, order a pizza, and park it in front of NFL Network.
Posted on 11/1/11 at 5:14 pm to bomber77
quote:
Foster, Brady cant possibly be busts.
I know....
I was trying to say that Jackson/Dorsey being drafted so high is the only reason they are 'bust'. The expectations for any first round pick are way out there and very few actually live up to them. It's more common to see someone like Brady then see someone like Peyton. Are they truly bust? No..they are both solid NFL players. Are they a bust on the flawed assumption that they would be pro-bowl level players who would make the Lions D-line look like babies? Probably so.
Posted on 11/3/11 at 3:16 am to OBUDan
I'm gonna go ahead and get all up in this thread. Tyson Jackson was taken waaaaay to high, because they were switching to a 34 and reached for a prototype 5 tech. Glenn Dorsey is a slightly undersized 3 tech that has quick later agility and uses speed to his advantage. The Chief's 34 is a lot like NE's... they ask their DEs to read to gaps, and play read and react. It nulifies everything Dorsey does well.
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