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Is Novak Djokovic's 2015 the Best Season Ever?

Posted on 11/23/15 at 12:48 am
Posted by SystemsGo
Member since Oct 2014
2774 posts
Posted on 11/23/15 at 12:48 am
2015 Novak Djokovic:
Record: 82-6
Titles: 11
Majors: 3
Record against top ten: 31-5
Masters Titles: 6
Rivals: 34 year old Federer, the worst season Nadal has had since 2004, a 28 year old Murray, a 29 year old Wawrinka

2013 Rafael Nadal:
Record: 75-7
Titles: 10
Majors: 2
Record against top ten: 24-5
Masters's Titles: 5
Rivals: 32 year old Federer, 26 year old Djokovic, 26 year old Murray

2011 Novak Djokovic
Record: 70-6
Titles: 10
Majors: 3
Record against top ten: 21-4
Master's titles: 5
Rivals: 30 year old Federer, 25 year old Nadal, 24 year old Murray

2006 Federer
Record: 92-5
Titles: 12
Majors: 3
Record against top ten: 19-4
Masters's Titles: =4
Rivals: Andy Roddick, James Blake, 19 year old Rafael Nadal, David Nalbandian, Lol

2005 Federer
Record: 81-4
Titles: 11
Majors: 2
Record against top ten: 15-2
Masters's Titles: 4
Rivals: Andy Roddick, Lleyton Hewitt, 136 year old Andre Agassi, Tim Henman, Lollolzlollol

1984 Mcenroe
Record: 82-3
Titles: 13
Majors: 2
Rivals: Ivan Lendl, Jimmy Connors, Mats Wilander


1974 Connors
Record: 99-4
Titles: 15
Majors: 3
Rivals: Ken Rosewall, Ilie Nastaste, Vitas Gerulatis

1969 Laver
Record: 106-16
Titles: 17
Majors: 4
Rivals: John Newcombe, Arthur Ashe, Ken Rosewall


The moral of the story is: it's officially time to start including Novak Djokovic in the conversation of greatest players of all time.

Discuss


Posted by UltimateHog
Oregon
Member since Dec 2011
65763 posts
Posted on 11/23/15 at 12:55 am to
Gross.
Posted by bayoucracka
Member since Sep 2015
6810 posts
Posted on 11/23/15 at 5:18 am to
With so much difference over the years in playing styles, court surfaces, opponents, equipment technology, etc., it's an impossible question to answer. I didn't start following tennis until the Agassi/Sampras era, so I can't speak for anything beyond that.

I'll start by removing Nadal 2013. He's the best clay courter of all time, but not good enough all around. Also, this was when Fed was at his worst, and Murray had back problems.

2011 Djokovic was on pace to be the clear choice before injuries and fatigue set in at the end of the year.

For me, it's between 2015 Djokovic and 2005 Federer.

2005 Fed literally lost only 1 hard court match the entire year. That is disgusting. I can see the weak-era argument, but with the way he was destroying people, better opponents may have met the same fate.

Maybe the most impressive thing about 2015 Djokovic is the quality of opponents. With Fed serving better than ever, his level of play is not far off from his prime. Murray could be playing his best tennis, or close to it. Wawrinka is clearly at his peak, and an absolute monster when he's on.

He's also the only player I've seen who can adapt his playing style to his opponent and make tweaks mid-match to play to his strengths and cover his weaknesses. He can be agressive and play offense, and if he's having an off day, he can turn into an absolute wall and play defense better than anyone else by far.

Just on pure numbers, Laver with 17 titles and 4 majors is pretty nuts. And that was at a time when the court surfaces were vastly different, so it had to be extremely tough to win on all of them.
Posted by Bunk Moreland
Member since Dec 2010
53030 posts
Posted on 11/23/15 at 7:18 am to
I didn't even realize until a few weeks ago that Novak's 2015 was getting close to his 2011. Heck, it's better. Second best season I've seen after Mac 1984.

Laver is tough to evaluate. You can say court speeds were much different, but I think 3 of 4 majors were on grass in his era, although I bet some of the other tournaments had slick carpet and hardwood. His slam count would be right near the top if not for the time when pros couldn't play majors.

If Novak adds another year or two like this, we're talking about having 3 of the top 5 players ever in the same era. Does that make it a golden age or is there something to the argument that it's weak?
Posted by RedHawk
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2007
8841 posts
Posted on 11/23/15 at 9:12 am to
Novak will have 20 major titles when he retires. There is nobody left to stop him the next four to five years.
Posted by Bunk Moreland
Member since Dec 2010
53030 posts
Posted on 11/23/15 at 9:18 am to
I think I've read that nobody has won more than 5 majors after 27 and Novak is at 4. He should obliterate that, but it might make you think twice about whether he wins 5+ more from this point.
This post was edited on 11/23/15 at 9:22 am
Posted by Paul Allen
Montauk, NY
Member since Nov 2007
75152 posts
Posted on 11/23/15 at 9:20 am to
quote:

Agassi Sampras era




Don't forget about Jim Courrier. Loved watching him play. Gustavo Kuerten was another one that was hot and quickly fizzled away.
Posted by BigPapiDoesItAgain
Amérique du Nord
Member since Nov 2009
2753 posts
Posted on 11/23/15 at 9:43 am to
Fed's 05-06 stretch was the most impressive stretch for my money (I know you said SEASON), but I think if you take single seasons, its hard to argue that Djokovic's 2015 's not is not the GOAT season, especially if you throw in the eye test, and especially if you consider how nearly perfect Wawrinka had to be to beat him at RG. With all the Serena talk - Djoker was actually one match closer to the slam than Serena (true his wasn't still in play in Sept like hers was).

I thought after Djokovic despatched Nadal in France that the slam was his for the taking. Fed was as good as he has been in a long, long time at Wimbledon, and the US Open, and still Dkoker rolled him. And if he stays healthy, there is no real end in sight soon (I know that's a different discussion). Biggest threat to 2016 GS might well be Rafa in Paris if he continues to play like he has been of late.
Posted by SystemsGo
Member since Oct 2014
2774 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 2:20 am to
quote:

I'll start by removing Nadal 2013. He's the best clay courter of all time, but not good enough all around. Also, this was when Fed was at his worst, and Murray had back problems.



Posted by SystemsGo
Member since Oct 2014
2774 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 2:36 am to
quote:

I'll start by removing Nadal 2013. He's the best clay courter of all time, but not good enough all around. Also, this was when Fed was at his worst, and Murray had back problems.


You do have a point about Nadal's 2013 season -- or any of Nadal's seasons -- you just have said point for the wrong reasons. 2013 was Rafa's best single season from a winning percentage perspective, but it wasn't his best season*. He was unquestionably better for large portions of 2008 and 2010. But in none of the above has he perfectly aligned the ebbs and flows of his game (and functioning of his posterior regions) with planetary cycles. If only Earth moved at 1/6th its current speed, we'd say Nadal's year corresponding to the time between 2008-2014 was the best ever by a comfortable margin.


*or even a complete season. He didn't play Aussie.
Posted by bayoucracka
Member since Sep 2015
6810 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 2:38 am to
Posted by SystemsGo
Member since Oct 2014
2774 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 2:45 am to
quote:

I think I've read that nobody has won more than 5 majors after 27 and Novak is at 4. He should obliterate that, but it might make you think twice about whether he wins 5+ more from this point.


He's aging really well, and he'll continue to. As much as he is a great athlete and he plays an athletic brand of tennis, he really doesn't play an *explosive* brand of tennis. He owes his court coverage as much or more to Gumby-like flexibility than quickness. And the fact that he's so lean really takes away from any pounding on his joints.

I honestly don't see his game dropping off at all in the next three years.
Posted by SystemsGo
Member since Oct 2014
2774 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 2:46 am to
The Mighty Steve D.
Posted by bayoucracka
Member since Sep 2015
6810 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 2:46 am to
You said best season. I'm just staying on topic. Best player ever, or best stretch of play ever... those are entirely different questions.

True, my point about Nadal not being good enough all around is actually irrelevant in this discussion, and I should have left that out.
Posted by SystemsGo
Member since Oct 2014
2774 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 2:49 am to
quote:

Biggest threat to 2016 GS might well be Rafa in Paris if he continues to play like he has been of late.


Or....

Posted by SystemsGo
Member since Oct 2014
2774 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 2:50 am to
quote:

You said best season. I'm just staying on topic. Best player ever, or best stretch of play ever... those are entirely different questions.


My bad.


quote:

True, my point about Nadal not being good enough all around is actually irrelevant in this discussion, and I should have left that out.


Your bad.

We'll call it even.
Posted by SystemsGo
Member since Oct 2014
2774 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 2:56 am to
quote:

I didn't even realize until a few weeks ago that Novak's 2015 was getting close to his 2011. Heck, it's better. Second best season I've seen after Mac 1984.

Laver is tough to evaluate. You can say court speeds were much different, but I think 3 of 4 majors were on grass in his era, although I bet some of the other tournaments had slick carpet and hardwood. His slam count would be right near the top if not for the time when pros couldn't play majors.

If Novak adds another year or two like this, we're talking about having 3 of the top 5 players ever in the same era. Does that make it a golden age or is there something to the argument that it's weak?



31 wins against the top ten is just absurd. Mac wasn't playing against the very top guys every week like Djokovic was this year. I don't know of an easy way to find out his record against top ten opponents in '84, but I'd be quite surprised if he had even 20 such wins. The increase in the number of "mandatory" Masters 1000 events has made it really difficult to pull off a season like Djokovic has this year.
Posted by bayoucracka
Member since Sep 2015
6810 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 3:04 am to
1984
1 John McEnroe
2 Jimmy Connors
3 Ivan Lendl
4 Mats Wilander
5 Andres Gomez
6 Anders Jarryd
7 Henrik Sundstrom
8 Pat Cash
9 Eliot Teltscher
10 Yannick Noah

You could take this final top 10 and add up all the wins over these guys. It would take forever on my phone.
Posted by SystemsGo
Member since Oct 2014
2774 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 5:10 am to
quote:



2 Jimmy Connors - 6
3 Ivan Lendl - 9
4 Mats Wilander - 3
5 Andres Gomez - 0
6 Anders Jarryd - 1
7 Henrik Sundstrom -1
8 Pat Cash - 2
9 Eliot Teltscher - 1
10 Yannick Noah - 0



Thanks, that wasn't too bad.


21-2 against top ten opponents.

Going 8-1 against Ivan Lendl in a year is no insignificant task. Lendl has him 21-15 in the overall H2H.* It's a bummer that Mcenroe decided -- in his absolute absolute prime -- that he needed to take some time off to tour around hollywood and do blow with his basehead wife. He was a better player, imho, than his 7 majors gives him credit for.**

_________________________
*He won 9 out of their last 10.
**In addition, he didn't start playing the australian open until after said coked-up extended tour of hollywood with his basehead wife. Lendl played it before it was really a de facto major, and has beefed up resume numbers as a result.
This post was edited on 11/24/15 at 5:12 am
Posted by dukke v
PLUTO
Member since Jul 2006
202644 posts
Posted on 11/24/15 at 5:37 am to
quote:

2006 Federer Record: 92-5 Titles: 12 Majors: 3 Record against top ten: 19-4 Masters's Titles: =4 Rivals: Andy Roddick, James Blake, 19 year old Rafael Nadal, David Nalbandian, Lol




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