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Debate about taking a timeout on the front end of the 2-minute warning
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:18 pm
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:18 pm
There is a long and heated (8 page) debate about whether or not Sean Payton should have taken a timeout with 2:01 left on the clock yesterday in the Saints / 49ers game. He was obviously trying to save as much time as possible for his offense to drive and score the winning points, as the 49ers' offense was backed up and impotent / not really threatening us.
I missed the heart of the debate on that thread, but really want to understand why so many people (maybe non-Saints fans who don't have a skin in the game) feel passionately that Payton made the "wrong" or a "risky" decision to take the timeout here.
I missed the heart of the debate on that thread, but really want to understand why so many people (maybe non-Saints fans who don't have a skin in the game) feel passionately that Payton made the "wrong" or a "risky" decision to take the timeout here.
This post was edited on 11/18/13 at 5:19 pm
10
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:20 pm to LasVegasBandit
He called the timeout so Hartley didn't have to sit around for the longer break at the two minute warning and think about the kick any longer than he needed
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:21 pm to LasVegasBandit
I would assume the risk is that he gave the 49ers more time to drive the ball down the field.
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:22 pm to GeauxAggie972
Hartley could've mentally sang like 3 death cab for cutie songs over that time frame
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:22 pm to GeauxAggie972
quote:
He called the timeout so Hartley didn't have to sit around for the longer break at the two minute warning and think about the kick any longer than he needed
Did Payton actually verbalize this, because that's a hell of a leap to make. I mean, the 49ers still had a timeout that they could have used to ice Hartley (but chose not to), so that doesn't really seem plausible to me.
This post was edited on 11/18/13 at 5:24 pm
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:24 pm to LasVegasBandit
What down was it when he made the TO?
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:25 pm to LasVegasBandit
You always call it before the 2 minute warning to save every second if that is your aim.
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:28 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
BTW - I think it was about to be 2nd down and 20 when Payton called the timeout at 2:01? But maybe it was about to be 3rd down.?
That's what I thought. It's one of those "Madden common sense moves" that 17 year old kids know better than actual NFL coaches because you play so damn many Madden scenarios that it becomes obvious how to optimally work the clock at ends of games.
Any kid who has played 10,000 games of Madden has a much greater working knowledge of optimizing end-game NFL scenarios than an old-school guy like Brian Billick or Andy Reid.
That's what I thought. It's one of those "Madden common sense moves" that 17 year old kids know better than actual NFL coaches because you play so damn many Madden scenarios that it becomes obvious how to optimally work the clock at ends of games.
Any kid who has played 10,000 games of Madden has a much greater working knowledge of optimizing end-game NFL scenarios than an old-school guy like Brian Billick or Andy Reid.
This post was edited on 11/18/13 at 5:30 pm
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:32 pm to LasVegasBandit
It takes away the advantage SF would have by running the ball. Makes them pass allowing us to pin our ears back and rush the passer. Should have won us the game
It was 2nd and 19
It was 2nd and 19
This post was edited on 11/18/13 at 5:33 pm
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:33 pm to LasVegasBandit
(no message)
This post was edited on 12/28/21 at 10:36 pm
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:34 pm to LasVegasBandit
San Francisco 49ers at 2:06 SF NO
1st and 10 at SF 20 (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick sacked at SF 11 for -9 yards (J.Galette).
Timeout #2 by NO at 02:01.
2nd and 19 at SF 11 (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right.
3rd and 19 at SF 11 (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick scrambles left end pushed ob at SF 27 for 16 yards (C.Carr).
4th and 3 at SF 27 A.Lee punts 48 yards to NO 25, Center-K.McDermott, fair catch by D.Sproles. PENALTY on SF-K.Osgood, Fair Catch Interference, 15 yards, enforced at NO 25.
DRIVE TOTALS: SF 20, NO 20, 3 plays, 7 yards, 0:18 elapsed
1st and 10 at SF 20 (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick sacked at SF 11 for -9 yards (J.Galette).
Timeout #2 by NO at 02:01.
2nd and 19 at SF 11 (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right.
3rd and 19 at SF 11 (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick scrambles left end pushed ob at SF 27 for 16 yards (C.Carr).
4th and 3 at SF 27 A.Lee punts 48 yards to NO 25, Center-K.McDermott, fair catch by D.Sproles. PENALTY on SF-K.Osgood, Fair Catch Interference, 15 yards, enforced at NO 25.
DRIVE TOTALS: SF 20, NO 20, 3 plays, 7 yards, 0:18 elapsed
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:35 pm to graychef
Nice summary and this is how I was nodding in agreement during the game. Details had gotten a little fuzzy to me in the subsequent 23 hours.
Having Morstead kick it out of the endzone so no time ran off was huge.
Having Morstead kick it out of the endzone so no time ran off was huge.
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:35 pm to DEANintheYAY
that's why I say genius
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:39 pm to LasVegasBandit
You don't call a time out that close to the 2 minute warning when you are on defense. Simply because you don't need to and it has the potential to be a waste. If you let it tick down to the 2 minute warning and they throw a pass the next play then you didn't need to take a time out. If they run, then you have maybe lost a few seconds. Yeah, those seconds can be big, but wasting a time out is much worse. It also opens up the playbook for the other team. They don't have to worry about stopping the clock on an incomplete pass because it is going to stop anyway.
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:46 pm to LasVegasBandit
It think it was a great move because you don't know if Hartley is going to make that kick. You might need to get the ball back while the 49ers would be trying to run the clock out. You force 49ers to run on 1st down and then you get a clock stoppage without using a time out.
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:46 pm to ZTiger87
quote:
You don't call a time out that close to the 2 minute warning when you are on defense. Simply because you don't need to and it has the potential to be a waste. If you let it tick down to the 2 minute warning and they throw a pass the next play then you didn't need to take a time out. If they run, then you have maybe lost a few seconds. Yeah, those seconds can be big, but wasting a time out is much worse. It also opens up the playbook for the other team. They don't have to worry about stopping the clock on an incomplete pass because it is going to stop anyway.
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:48 pm to DEANintheYAY
quote:
2nd and 19 at SF 11 (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right. Penalty-Intentional Grounding. Safety-New Orleans
FTFY
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:48 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
You always call it before the 2 minute warning to save every second if that is your aim.
Yeah if you are about to get the ball. Not if you are about to give it to the other team.
It worked out but if San Fran drives and kicks a FG it looks really really dumb.
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:53 pm to ZTiger87
quote:
You don't call a time out that close to the 2 minute warning when you are on defense. Simply because you don't need to and it has the potential to be a waste. If you let it tick down to the 2 minute warning and they throw a pass the next play then you didn't need to take a time out. If they run, then you have maybe lost a few seconds. Yeah, those seconds can be big, but wasting a time out is much worse. It also opens up the playbook for the other team. They don't have to worry about stopping the clock on an incomplete pass because it is going to stop anyway.
You're not "wasting" a timeout though, because you're cycling through a play with no clock runoff. That's not a "waste". If they throw an incomplete pass that doesn't negate the benefit of the timeout as you're implying. It just compounds the benefit that you've already gotten from your initial timeout.
This post was edited on 11/18/13 at 5:54 pm
Posted on 11/18/13 at 5:54 pm to wish i was tebow
Payton has shown time and time again that he is the anti Les Miles when it comes to click management.
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