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re: Alonzo mourning says Jordan would average 50 today.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 12:55 pm to PrimeTime Money
Posted on 3/31/15 at 12:55 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:Do you think Michael Jordan would have developed his game somewhat differently if he had to play by today's rules? His bread and butter, the midrange jump shot is devalued as the game is played today, and the 3 point shot is more valued. Does anyone really think Jordan wouldn't have worked on his shot from 3 point range, and taken more 3 point shots if that was the premium offense? Jordan didn't take as many 3 point shots as some of his teammates. He could easily have taken those shots instead of helping create those shots for his teammates.
Also, if we're talking extreme hypotheticals, opponents can play 3 guys on Jordan to prevent him from scoring 50 a game.
It is ironic that those claiming Jordan wouldn't be as dominant today are some of the same claiming Pete Maravich would be more dominant today.
5
Posted on 3/31/15 at 12:59 pm to Poodlebrain
quote:I'm sure this would be somewhat true.
Does anyone really think Jordan wouldn't have worked on his shot from 3 point range, and taken more 3 point shots if that was the premium offense?
But...even though the shots MJ took once his game evolved may not have seemed efficient, the reason why he's the GOAT is because of how efficient he actually still was able to be while taking those shots. Not many high volume shooting perimeter players(think elite guys getting all of the defensive attention) can say they've shot 50% from the field.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:01 pm to Poodlebrain
quote:I have no idea if that's what people are arguing, I'm just arguing that he would probably ultimately score at the same rate
It is ironic that those claiming Jordan wouldn't be as dominant today
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:02 pm to RonBurgundy
quote:Can you clarify? On one hand you say "not exactly" then you sound like you agree with me.
not exactly. you can zone up the lane, as Thibs and Rivers have shown to do.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:06 pm to Poodlebrain
I don't think anyone is arguing that Jordan wouldn't be as dominant today relative to the competition.
They are arguing against the ridiculousness that he would score way more now than back then.
I'm personally arguing that it is harder for the individual player to average as many points as star players used to average in the 80's and 90's.
They are arguing against the ridiculousness that he would score way more now than back then.
I'm personally arguing that it is harder for the individual player to average as many points as star players used to average in the 80's and 90's.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:09 pm to Poodlebrain
quote:On the other hand , if he developed his game differently, he wouldn't be the same player. His entire game would be different, and that style just might not suit him as well.
Do you think Michael Jordan would have developed his game somewhat differently if he had to play by today's rules? His bread and butter, the midrange jump shot is devalued as the game is played today, and the 3 point shot is more valued. Does anyone really think Jordan wouldn't have worked on his shot from 3 point range, and taken more 3 point shots if that was the premium offense? Jordan didn't take as many 3 point shots as some of his teammates. He could easily have taken those shots instead of helping create those shots for his teammates.
I'm not saying he couldn't be as good... I'm just saying it's possible that he wouldn't be as good if he had to completely change his style of play.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:17 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:Exactly. Nobody doubts MJ is one of, if not the GOAT, but making him superhuman (like Zo's statement) is unnecessary.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Jordan wouldn't be as dominant today relative to the competition.
They are arguing against the ridiculousness that he would score way more now than back then.
I'm personally arguing that it is harder for the individual player to average as many points as star players used to average in the 80's and 90's.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:20 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
I'm personally arguing that it is harder for the individual player to average as many points as star players used to average in the 80's and 90's.
With the increased number of 3PTFGA drastically increased and the defensive 3 second rule now in place to "open up the game" (read the offensive flow) it is just as easy to score today. It's the balance against evolved coaching tactics (i.e. rotations).
This post was edited on 3/31/15 at 1:21 pm
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:21 pm to buckeye_vol
This whole thread is fun, but didn't Zo just sort of say it off-handedly on a sports comedy show?
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:32 pm to RonBurgundy
quote:Since 1979-80 (first season with 3 pointers), the average offensive rating has been 106.32, average pace has been 95.1, and average PPG has been 101.88. While the mid to late 80s was not much higher in terms of offensive rating (~ 107.8 last 5 years of decade), the pace was significantly faster (101.04) than average. As a results the PPG was much higher (109.7). So it was easier to score because of the faster pace (and higher FT rate).
With the increased number of 3PTFGA drastically increased and the defensive 3 second rule now in place to "open up the game" (read the offensive flow) it is just as easy to score today. It's the balance against evolved coaching tactics (i.e. rotations).
This post was edited on 3/31/15 at 1:36 pm
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:37 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Since 1979-80 (first season with 3 pointers), the average offensive rating has been 106.32, average pace has been 95.1, and average PPG has been 101.88. While the mid to late 80s was not much higher in terms of offensive rating (~ 107.8 last 5 years of decade), but the one was to late 80s the pace was significantly faster (101.04) than average. As a results the PPG was much higher (109.7). So it was easier to score because of the faster pace (and higher FT rate
You do understand pace is primarily a subjective decision? It's a move/counter-move call by the coaching staffs.Pace is slowed down,again, only because of strategy not rules.
Objectively speaking, the rules in place are designed to increase flow and offensive output.By their own language, this is inarguable.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:46 pm to RonBurgundy
The rules were put in place specifically to promote ball movement and fast breaks, which increases the pace.
In the late 90's, the NBA was nothing but slow-paced iso basketball. That's why the rules were changed.
In the late 90's, the NBA was nothing but slow-paced iso basketball. That's why the rules were changed.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:51 pm to Poodlebrain
quote:
quote:
Also, if we're talking extreme hypotheticals, opponents can play 3 guys on Jordan to prevent him from scoring 50 a game.
Do you think Michael Jordan would have developed his game somewhat differently if he had to play by today's rules? His bread and butter, the midrange jump shot is devalued as the game is played today, and the 3 point shot is more valued. Does anyone really think Jordan wouldn't have worked on his shot from 3 point range, and taken more 3 point shots if that was the premium offense? Jordan didn't take as many 3 point shots as some of his teammates. He could easily have taken those shots instead of helping create those shots for his teammates.
It is ironic that those claiming Jordan wouldn't be as dominant today are some of the same claiming Pete Maravich would be more dominant today.
jordan absolutely would've worked on his 3 pt shot ... he didn't have much of a midrange js when he entered the pros, but he worked his arse off to get one ... there haven't been that many players that worked as hard as jordan ... he would destroy today's defenses same as he did 30 years ago ...
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:52 pm to PrimeTime Money
I'm sure this has been brought up by now, but:
This isn't true. He said "prolly average almost 50."
Hyperbole for sure, but I'd say he means maybe like 45 or so per game, and it's based on him getting to the FT line a lot more than back then.
Anyway, just wanted to point that out...back to your regularly scheduled arguing.
quote:
Alonzo mourning says Jordan would average 50 today. by PrimeTime Money
This isn't true. He said "prolly average almost 50."
Hyperbole for sure, but I'd say he means maybe like 45 or so per game, and it's based on him getting to the FT line a lot more than back then.
Anyway, just wanted to point that out...back to your regularly scheduled arguing.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 1:52 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
The rules were put in place specifically to promote ball movement and fast breaks, which increases the pace.
In the late 90's, the NBA was nothing but slow-paced iso basketball. That's why the rules were changed.
Like I said, to open up the game offensively. Glad you agree with me.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 2:02 pm to RonBurgundy
From an aesthetics stand-point. The iso ball was incredibly boring. And teams that didn't have that superstar player were dreadful to watch.
The league recognized that the product on the floor was stale, and changed the rules to make it more entertaining.
The defensive 3-second rule was implemented so that defenses couldn't just clog the lane all game. The idea was to not leave the paint so occupied that it hurts the product, but not as open as it was in the iso era.
But coaches now have found ways to still skirt around it and "pack the paint". Tom Thibodeu really started that.
The old rules allowed the paint to be way more open than it is now. Kobe Bryant even stated it here:
Back in the 90's, if you beat your man in iso situations, there isn't the same kind of help defense there is now. It was a much clearer path to the basket. Now, players can cheat off their man and hang out in space to help out. It makes it much more difficult to get a clear lane to the basket.
The league recognized that the product on the floor was stale, and changed the rules to make it more entertaining.
The defensive 3-second rule was implemented so that defenses couldn't just clog the lane all game. The idea was to not leave the paint so occupied that it hurts the product, but not as open as it was in the iso era.
But coaches now have found ways to still skirt around it and "pack the paint". Tom Thibodeu really started that.
The old rules allowed the paint to be way more open than it is now. Kobe Bryant even stated it here:
Back in the 90's, if you beat your man in iso situations, there isn't the same kind of help defense there is now. It was a much clearer path to the basket. Now, players can cheat off their man and hang out in space to help out. It makes it much more difficult to get a clear lane to the basket.
This post was edited on 3/31/15 at 2:04 pm
Posted on 3/31/15 at 2:06 pm to CocomoLSU
quote:That is counter to the evidence though. They averaged about 8 free throws more per game in Jordan's scoring prime (mid to late 80s). Even adjusting for pace, they took far more free throws during that time.
This isn't true. He said Hyperbole for sure, but I'd say he means maybe like 45 or so per game, and it's based on him getting to the FT line a lot more than back then.
Anyway, just wanted to point that out...back to your regularly scheduled arguing.
This post was edited on 3/31/15 at 2:13 pm
Posted on 3/31/15 at 2:11 pm to RonBurgundy
I don't know if he could average 50 today just by the large amount of shots he would have to take to do it, but I know this, MJ would dominate any era he played in.
A few more that would light up today's game would be Bird and Magic.
The greats are great for a reason not only do they have athletic ability they have the dive and work ethic to go with it.
A few more that would light up today's game would be Bird and Magic.
The greats are great for a reason not only do they have athletic ability they have the dive and work ethic to go with it.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 2:27 pm to offshoretrash
quote:But you see, the old timers tell me the greats from today would suck in the 80s and 90s
The greats are great for a reason not only do they have athletic ability they have the dive and work ethic to go with it.
Posted on 3/31/15 at 2:30 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
“It’s more of a finesse game. It’s more small ball. Which, personally, I don’t really care much for,” Bryant said. Like so many from the old-school – even at 35, Bryant qualifies – he is befuddled at the soft stuff now that passes for physical play. “Makes me nauseous,” he said. “You can’t touch a guy….
“Nowadays, anybody can get out there and get to the basket – you can’t touch ‘em,” he said. “Back then, if you have guys putting their hands on you, you have to have the skills to be able to go both ways, change directions, post up and have that mid-range game, because you didn’t want to go all the way to the basket because you’d get knocked [down].”
Kobe Bryant
This post was edited on 3/31/15 at 6:43 pm
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