Page 1
Page 1
Started By
Message

Why is the Yield Curve inverting?

Posted on 5/29/19 at 1:44 pm
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
51575 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 1:44 pm
I know a little about this stuff, but not nearly enough.

GDP was far higher than expected, Unemployment is at a 50yr low, wages are rising and inflation is being held almost flat.

What's driving the short-term rates up (or is it that long-term rates are dropping... or both)?
Posted by notsince98
KC, MO
Member since Oct 2012
17979 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 1:49 pm to
quote:

What's driving the short-term rates up (or is it that long-term rates are dropping... or both)?


Unfortunately, the answer is not likely to be found in the world of Finance and more likely to be found in the world of politics.
Posted by jimbeam
University of LSU
Member since Oct 2011
75703 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 1:52 pm to
Trump
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
51575 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 1:55 pm to
Tariffs?

Is this speculation on the part of buyers? Getting extra cash for purchases? Something else?
This post was edited on 5/29/19 at 1:57 pm
Posted by Omada
Member since Jun 2015
695 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 2:07 pm to
St. Louis Fed Video: Why does the Yield Curve Typically Invert Before Recession?

Basically, people get concerned about recession and market declines and bid up longer term bonds, causing their yields to decline while short term yields stay the same.
Posted by tigerrocket
Member since Aug 2008
162 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 2:16 pm to
Because the fed raised short term rates.
Posted by yatesdog38
in your head rent free
Member since Sep 2013
12737 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 2:33 pm to
it is a supply demand thing. so yes is the short answer There is more demand to lock in rates on the long term because of fear of reducing the overnight lending rate or lowering of other rates for an extended period of time so there is a rush to lock in 3-5 year notes. currently the 3 month is inverted with 1 year 3 year and 5 year.... probably flattens at 7. Who are the buyers? those are gonna be insurance companies, banks, bond funds, and other countries trying to stabilize their currency.
Posted by yatesdog38
in your head rent free
Member since Sep 2013
12737 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 2:36 pm to
no they didn't and pretty much everyone on the FED indicated there would be no rate increases or cuts this year at the last meeting
Posted by tigerrocket
Member since Aug 2008
162 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 2:43 pm to
Fed raised rates three times in 2018.
Posted by yatesdog38
in your head rent free
Member since Sep 2013
12737 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 3:13 pm to
yeah well it is 2019... overnight loan rate from 2018 means exactly zero relative to current short term rates and the inversion


what you just said is exactly what people were saying in January of 2007.

Posted by tigerrocket
Member since Aug 2008
162 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 3:20 pm to
I gave one simple reason of many for yield curve inversion. I can list many more, but I am sure you already have all the answers.
Posted by yatesdog38
in your head rent free
Member since Sep 2013
12737 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 3:27 pm to
that isn't a reason. fed raises rates people flock from long term bonds decreasing the price on the long end thus raising the yields on the longer end. The demand isn't there for long term and the yields adjust accordingly... your simple theory is incorrect. but please try again
This post was edited on 5/29/19 at 3:28 pm
Posted by Shepherd88
Member since Dec 2013
4582 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 3:41 pm to
Yes, I would also venture to say a massive amount of European investments are pushing down the demand, since they have nowhere to find stable yields in their countries.
Posted by tigerrocket
Member since Aug 2008
162 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 3:53 pm to
If your theory is correct, why haven't people sold the long bond? Since the last fed hike in December, the 30yr bond has gone from 3.3% to 2.69%, indicating that there is still demand for the long bond. The demand is probably there because other countries are buying our debt which has relatively high yields compared to other countries such as Germany and Japan. I still believe that had the fed not raised short rates, the yield curve would not be flat or inverted.
Posted by yatesdog38
in your head rent free
Member since Sep 2013
12737 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 4:01 pm to
the overall demand is likely increasing at a small level, but more so the demand is shifting towards the longer maturities. I still don't think we see a 2/10 inversion this year. I think it would have to get really bad overseas and then pretty crappy economic numbers here. Wild speculation but if i had to pick a day for it to happen i'm going with groundhog day 2020. decent possibility with rates so low we never see the 2/10 inversion before the next recession
Posted by yatesdog38
in your head rent free
Member since Sep 2013
12737 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 4:15 pm to
in a rate rising environment all things being equal the long bond adjusts accordingly with every rate increase. Fed has stated there will likely be no more rate increases this year. So in a perfect world we should see rates have a standard upward curve reflecting the time value of money. We are not in a perfect world. The world seems to think that there is medium to long term risk global economic risk and that U.S rates short term rates are going to move towards zero.


Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
51575 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 4:15 pm to
Okay, I think I see it now.

Bond rates are driven up by demand and demand is based on what the market thinks the economy will do and what the market thinks the Fed may do. A run on short-term bonds happens when the market gets skittish and longer-term buys are when the market feels more comfortable.

Is that about right?
Posted by yatesdog38
in your head rent free
Member since Sep 2013
12737 posts
Posted on 5/29/19 at 4:36 pm to
kinda. It is difficult to explain, I have a little knowledge from working with some institutional sales reps that trade agencies (fannie, freddie etc).

sounds like you get it but aren't communicating it effectively which i'm probably doing as well. Think of you as the bank. If you can loan money at 2.5% for 5 years or 3% at 1 year which would you take (loan demands remaining constant) Normally you would want to do the second option if you knew that renewing the loan every year you would get 3%, but if you are predicting that next year rates are going to go to zero and stay there for multiple years you are better off doing the longer maturity locking it in now. You could make 3% for year one, but years 2-5 make zero percent. or lock in 2.5% for 5 years which would yield a better return.

The prices are driven by fear of diminishing returns in the interest rate market and capital flocking out of equities to safety which would be treasuries as considered the most safe.

The best people to explain it are the older institutional bond traders or older dudes managing capital for insurance or banks
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
51575 posts
Posted on 5/30/19 at 7:27 am to
quote:

Think of you as the bank. If you can loan money at 2.5% for 5 years or 3% at 1 year which would you take (loan demands remaining constant) Normally you would want to do the second option if you knew that renewing the loan every year you would get 3%, but if you are predicting that next year rates are going to go to zero and stay there for multiple years you are better off doing the longer maturity locking it in now. You could make 3% for year one, but years 2-5 make zero percent. or lock in 2.5% for 5 years which would yield a better return.

The prices are driven by fear of diminishing returns in the interest rate market and capital flocking out of equities to safety which would be treasuries as considered the most safe.


That explains it very well! Thanks
first pageprev pagePage 1 of 1Next pagelast page
refresh

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookTwitterInstagram