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Stock repurchases

Posted on 5/29/11 at 12:22 am
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 5/29/11 at 12:22 am
Why dont companies that are sitting on boatloads of cash just use it to repurchase some of their shares and hold them as treasury stock? It seem like it would be a better use of funds than just sitting on cash.

I don't understand the legal ramifications associated with doing it, but I know they exist, so that may be it.

Also, if they want to acquire a company, they could either sell back the shares to the market, or buy it out with its own shares.
Posted by John Merlyn
Member since Oct 2009
2203 posts
Posted on 5/29/11 at 12:24 am to
Flask, I think once a company repurchases then it is like that stock never existed. I don't believe they could sell it back later. (Obviously could issue more shares).
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 5/29/11 at 1:03 am to
It definitely doesn't dissolve, I goes into treasury stock. It can then be used to pay out warrants. I am not sure about being resold in the open market, though. Good point.

ETA: if they have to issue more shares, it would be costly in underwriting and more importantly be bad "signaling" by the company.
This post was edited on 5/29/11 at 1:05 am
Posted by Quidam65
Q Continuum
Member since Jun 2010
19307 posts
Posted on 5/29/11 at 8:01 am to
No, as long as the company doesn't formally retire the shares, they can resell them at any time.

If the shares are retired, they can be reissued as well (a company can issue as many shares as its articles of incorporation allow, at any time).
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
126962 posts
Posted on 5/29/11 at 10:45 am to
Doesn't the accounting treatment of a share buyback have a negative impact on the company's capital ratio.

I'm specifically referring to banks which may have large cash holdings but if they use the cash to buy back shares would they not also have to show a decrease in capital to keep the balance sheet in balance?

That also would probably require Fed approval which these days the Fed is not too keen on seeing banks lower their capital.
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 5/29/11 at 11:28 am to
Yes, it's filed as a reduction in retained earnings and causes the equity share of the capital structure to decrease, but so does a dividend.

Repurchases are functionally (to the company) the same as dividends, but the distributions are concentrated in cash to some investors and the other investors receive the value in the form of capital gains.

It was really useful when CGs were taxed at a lower rates than dividends, but it's still got a lot of merit to it.
Posted by C
Houston
Member since Dec 2007
27817 posts
Posted on 5/29/11 at 11:40 am to
Why would they purchase their stock versus any other stock? Seems very risky. What happens if something very bad happens within the company? The stock price would likely fall. Then the company would need to sell the stock to to assist with any recovery, which may increase supply being sold further decreasing the stock price.
Posted by kaaj24
Dallas
Member since Jan 2010
603 posts
Posted on 5/29/11 at 12:04 pm to
It's a great way to give EPS a boost. Some may call it financial engineering. As others of said it may help with the appreciation of stock price for shareholders and can be an way to return shareholder value.

Posted by Tiger4
Member since Jan 2009
8761 posts
Posted on 5/29/11 at 12:43 pm to
quote:

Doesn't the accounting treatment of a share buyback have a negative impact on the company's capital ratio.
Never thought of that.
This post was edited on 5/29/11 at 12:48 pm
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 5/29/11 at 12:49 pm to
That's not a valid concern bs paying a dividend, C. If that's a concern, then they can keep sitting on the cash, but buying back it's own stock does not make the company leveraged to itself like you are thinking.

However, if the company has any debt, shrinking the equity portion would effectively increase financial leverage.

As far as investing in other company's stock, that is the last thing I want the CEO of a company (sans Buffet) doing. If I wan to be invested in a company, I will do it myself without the penalty of double taxation.
Posted by NaBreauxleon
Member since Mar 2011
103 posts
Posted on 5/31/11 at 7:58 am to
The company I work for bought back approximately 5 million shares this years.
Posted by lynxcat
Member since Jan 2008
24132 posts
Posted on 5/31/11 at 11:32 am to
In our business simulation we bought back shares with the exact same reasoning in mind. We had loads of cash on hand and the game didn't have anywhere for us to put it.

Buyback increases eps which was one of our scoring metrics, so it was the obvious "financial engineering" play.

It also acts as a fantastic place for returns if your stock
price rises after the buyback. If your stock price falls, then you feel the pain, though.
This post was edited on 5/31/11 at 11:34 am
Posted by lynxcat
Member since Jan 2008
24132 posts
Posted on 5/31/11 at 11:39 am to
The capital ratio is an interesting piece of this scenario--nice point, Russian.

I think it also matters which accounting treatment a firm selects as it will help shed light on the intent behind the repurchase. If the retirement method is used (buy back directly and those shares disappear) then I think it shows the company has no plans of reissuing the shares. However, the cost method (which results in the "Treasury stock" account) shows that the possibility for a sell-back is a possibility as the shares are still in existence.

I do not know the practicality of what I just posted, but I think the logic is there from an accounting perspective.

Thoughts?
Posted by sneakytiger
Member since Oct 2007
2471 posts
Posted on 5/31/11 at 1:04 pm to
I think the latter would be used more to fund executive and board member options and warrants, right? I'm trying to think of scenarios where it would make sense for a company to make a large, but temporary repurchase... seems like a great way to piss your stockholders off
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 5/31/11 at 1:15 pm to
Its a shame mgmt teams seem to be notoriously bad at timing stock repurchases. IMO, theoretically a good idea, often botched in actual practice. Shoutout to lynx for the FAR knowledge drop.
Posted by tirebiter
7K R&G chile land aka SF
Member since Oct 2006
9181 posts
Posted on 5/31/11 at 1:34 pm to
quote:

Its a shame mgmt teams seem to be notoriously bad at timing stock repurchases. IMO, theoretically a good idea, often botched in actual practice. Shoutout to lynx for the FAR knowledge drop.


Rarely do companies buy back shares at value prices. As a shareholder I would prefer a dividend payout instead of share repurchase that goes into an option pool for already outrageously compensated executives. By the time a stock is fairly or over valued the insiders are selling, not buying, why is that a great time to reduce outstanding shares?
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 5/31/11 at 2:09 pm to
In their defense, I think it really a cyclical issue. We all know they buy back shares (theoretically) when 1) they have excess cash and 2) few current profitable operating opportunities. Logically, the existence of that scenario suggests they are buying past a mid-cycle (being generous here) time frame, also suggesting that share prices are likely rich at that time to begin with, and investors are probably getting antsy and putting pressure on mgmt to "do something," when the best thing to do would be probably to do nothing and be patient.

At the same time, the most opportunistic time to do a buyback is when valuations are low, which generally obviously falls during a period of some kind of economic distress. So then mgmt would be draining liquidity and probably forgoing potentially underpriced operating opps in order to buy back shares, which sounds just as ludicrous as the opposite/above scenario.
This post was edited on 5/31/11 at 2:11 pm
Posted by tirebiter
7K R&G chile land aka SF
Member since Oct 2006
9181 posts
Posted on 5/31/11 at 4:20 pm to
quote:

At the same time, the most opportunistic time to do a buyback is when valuations are low, which generally obviously falls during a period of some kind of economic distress. So then mgmt would be draining liquidity and probably forgoing potentially underpriced operating opps in order to buy back shares, which sounds just as ludicrous as the opposite/above scenario.


Warren Buffet never seems to have an issue buying during distressed times. Which gets to my point of over-comped CEO's about not pulling the trigger for shareholders when it could mean significant upside in future years. I truly do not believe a plethora of great CEOs exist. There are a few, but how many are true difference makers in building long term wealth beyond the manage for next Q's earnings to support current valuations and increase their equity/option comp for short term payout, ie a few years then exit with $$$$$$$$$?
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 5/31/11 at 4:51 pm to
I get why you think it is wrong, but what is your alternative solution?
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 5/31/11 at 5:06 pm to
No disagreement here. WB is in a unique position though, he just buys whatever he wants. BRK is just a giant investment conglomerate, most ceos would get hammered for that. What if Cisco decided to go buy a distressed european insurer/bank right now, instead of a buyback or whatever? People would freak the f out.

Eta: my solution is to not do them. Business cycles are short now, you'll either find a use soon, our you'll probably need it soon. They just always feel like "well, we've got nothing else to do with this pile of cash" type moves, and they very clearly are not riskless moves, even though they deceptively feel that way. Its like the ot thread about the bridge in st francisville. Someone asked why we spent 400m on a bridge connecting like 7000 people. The answer was "the state had money and br didn't want a loop so they built a bridge." Politicians, man.
This post was edited on 5/31/11 at 5:15 pm
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