- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
OPEC Faces $750bn Losses From Market Share Strategy
Posted on 3/19/15 at 3:29 am
Posted on 3/19/15 at 3:29 am
quote:
NOVEMBER DECISION
By the week of the November meeting, the average price of the OPEC Basket of crude oils had already declined to about $75/B from $108/B in June. A temporary cut in the ceiling to 28.4mn b/d should have been sufficient to reverse the price slide. Many were surprised that OPEC chose to leave its ceiling unchanged.
Why the meeting made the costly choice to defend market share rather than price is an important question to which we will return later. Meanwhile, we have estimated that the long-run cost to OPEC of its decision ranges from $343bn to as high as $746bn over the period to 2020, depending upon one’s assumptions about how a price defense strategy, had it been adopted, would have been implemented.
quote:
HOW DID OPEC MAKE THIS CHOICE? WHAT CAN IT DO NOW?
The decision last November to defend market share was practically imposed by Saudi Arabia who (a) doubted the willingness of other OPEC members to abide by any agreed production cut, and (b) despaired of persuading non-OPEC producers, such as Russia and Mexico, to collaborate on a price defense strategy. Saudi Arabia feared that it alone would bear the entire burden of a price defense strategy, while the benefits would accrue to others.
LINK
Posted on 3/19/15 at 5:30 am to Street Hawk
Interesting. It doesn't sound like they are backing down anytime soon though, just read this thus morning:
LINK
LINK
Posted on 3/19/15 at 6:32 am to Street Hawk
It looks like OPEC is a paper tiger from here on out. If job of OPEC is to curtail production to keep prices high, and OPEC purposely doesn't cut production and prices stay low, then OPEC now really is just a nice Swiss vacation meeting for the Arabs.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 6:35 am to Sandy_Ash
I haven't been following the story, but as I understand it they are trying to slap the face of American production that has been growing far in excess of the global average.
Majority of new production is not economical at the current prices, which is the point.
Majority of new production is not economical at the current prices, which is the point.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 6:44 am to Volvagia
quote:
but as I understand it they are trying to slap the face of American production that has been growing far in excess of the global average.
I believe I read that Saudi's break even point on production is somewhere around $10/barrel.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 6:45 am to Volvagia
They were becoming a paper tiger. This is the smartest move Saudi Arabia has made in years. They were propping the price up too much such that people could eat into their oligopoly as it was economically viable.
Oil will go up eventually, once they feel secure that new oil exploration isn't a sound investment anymore and they consolidate a higher market share
Oil will go up eventually, once they feel secure that new oil exploration isn't a sound investment anymore and they consolidate a higher market share
Posted on 3/19/15 at 8:16 am to GenesChin
The Saudis probably made the right decision not to cut. They tried this in the early 1980's and cut all the way down to 2-3 million BOPD to support price which was unpalatable. The oil market was ugly in the late 1980's when they returned their production back to pre cut levels and the surplus supply had to be worked out of the market. The new reality is that American shale production is the swing barrel. The price of oil will probably revert back to the marginal cost for shale production in the US. The really scary thing is that other than North American shale oil/tight oil/oil sands there has been almost no production growth in the rest of the world in the last 5 years. It's doubtful that the Saudi's themselves have much more production capacity and therefore it will be American shale oil that will become the new swing production ramping up when price dictates or slowing down when prices fall like currently. The Saudis will still retain market share as they are probably the cheapest barrels in the world to produce yet Ghawar is aging.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 9:27 am to Lsut81
quote:
I believe I read that Saudi's break even point on production is somewhere around $10/barrel
Maybe $10-12 in a few isolated legacy fields. Averaged out across their entire production base it's closer to $26-32. Either way they can hold their breathe the longest.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 10:26 am to TigerDog83
Looks like Saudis are trying to decrease shale production and reset prices at where shale isn't economically viable for further production
They may lose money short term but protects their market share long term. It also halts this energy efficiency movement which has been trending
They may lose money short term but protects their market share long term. It also halts this energy efficiency movement which has been trending
Posted on 3/19/15 at 10:58 am to GenesChin
How do yall think US exporting would change things IF they lifted the ban...
Posted on 3/19/15 at 12:41 pm to TigerDog83
The Saudis are in a way acting like the federal reserve. There is a huge deflation in the market, but they do not want to cut interest rates because they think the short term pain is necessary for long term health.
Posted on 3/19/15 at 1:19 pm to NOLAGT
quote:
How do yall think US exporting would change things IF they lifted the ban...
Exporting would probably narrow the Brent - WTI spread down somewhat and allow some blend swapping between refiniries. Would definitely be nice to not have the downward pressure on the markets right now with the possibility of full storage in the US. Other than those results probably not a whole lot.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 9:03 am to TigerDog83
The Saudis are protecting marketshare and taking the losses because they absolutely HATE Iran and view them as a destabilizing influence in the ME.
When these sanctions get lifted, Saudi has basically said we'll use our own production and OPEC as a means to keep the market artificially low and lose our @ss off in order to keep Iran weakened.
Think about it...If and when the Nuke deal gets done, Western Sanctions get lifted, and Iran can now sell its oil again. But...for how much?
What kind of petro market is Iran returning to? One where both it-and its Russian patron-will struggle their @sses off to make any money in.
I think the Saudi's and the US are working together across multiple spectrums-both political (overtly) and economic (subtly and almost counterintuitively to most observers)-to punish Russia and Iran and weaken their influence within the region and globally by extension. The US looks like it's pushing for a deal that will lift sanctions. But even when it does, Iran has its government funding pegged to selling oil at about $130/bl right now based on previous projections.
If a deal gets done in the short term, there will be no market for Iran to "come home to". No one is going to want to invest the money it takes to get their current producing wells retooled nevermind invest in their newer plays.
Not with prices where they are and Iran as unfriendly to outsiders as they are. This puts a huge strain on their economy and I think it's all part of a grand strategy.
Saudi and US get a more stabilized Middle East with Iran less able to project unrest because of their economic issues tied to the price of oil and marketshare issues that Saudis have wrestled control of. They also get a "Nuclear" Iran that's so economically limited that they'll be far, far more subservient actors as a Nation-State.
At least that's what I feel like is the hope of both Saudis and the US when I see these pieces on the board moving.
Just my $0.02...
When these sanctions get lifted, Saudi has basically said we'll use our own production and OPEC as a means to keep the market artificially low and lose our @ss off in order to keep Iran weakened.
Think about it...If and when the Nuke deal gets done, Western Sanctions get lifted, and Iran can now sell its oil again. But...for how much?
What kind of petro market is Iran returning to? One where both it-and its Russian patron-will struggle their @sses off to make any money in.
I think the Saudi's and the US are working together across multiple spectrums-both political (overtly) and economic (subtly and almost counterintuitively to most observers)-to punish Russia and Iran and weaken their influence within the region and globally by extension. The US looks like it's pushing for a deal that will lift sanctions. But even when it does, Iran has its government funding pegged to selling oil at about $130/bl right now based on previous projections.
If a deal gets done in the short term, there will be no market for Iran to "come home to". No one is going to want to invest the money it takes to get their current producing wells retooled nevermind invest in their newer plays.
Not with prices where they are and Iran as unfriendly to outsiders as they are. This puts a huge strain on their economy and I think it's all part of a grand strategy.
Saudi and US get a more stabilized Middle East with Iran less able to project unrest because of their economic issues tied to the price of oil and marketshare issues that Saudis have wrestled control of. They also get a "Nuclear" Iran that's so economically limited that they'll be far, far more subservient actors as a Nation-State.
At least that's what I feel like is the hope of both Saudis and the US when I see these pieces on the board moving.
Just my $0.02...
This post was edited on 3/20/15 at 9:07 am
Posted on 3/20/15 at 9:14 am to Volvagia
OPEC is playing the Wal-Mart game. They are cutting prices because their unit costs associated with production are much lower then their rivals. The price drops below economic viability for their rivals with higher unit costs. Their rivals go out of business, leaving OPEC with much greater market share. Once enough competitors are gone so people no longer have much of a choice but to buy from OPEC, they raise the prices and reap the profits.
OPEC is trying to re-corner the market (by destroying American fracking) and hurt Russia in the process.
OPEC is trying to re-corner the market (by destroying American fracking) and hurt Russia in the process.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 9:25 am to kingbob
quote:
kingbob
quote:
OPEC is playing the Wal-Mart game. They are cutting prices because their unit costs associated with production are much lower then their rivals. The price drops below economic viability for their rivals with higher unit costs. Their rivals go out of business, leaving OPEC with much greater market share. Once enough competitors are gone so people no longer have much of a choice but to buy from OPEC, they raise the prices and reap the profits. OPEC is trying to re-corner the market (by destroying American fracking) and hurt Russia in the process.
I think it's a long-term strategy that was done with US and SA to glut the market for when Iran comes back. They want regime change there to bring stability in the ME and for Saudi to control/dominate the area politically. Now that all the demand is online, they're keeping it there waiting for Iran to get their oil out there, and then they'll blame them when it craters even more, and hopefully Iran gets crushed economically in the process just as it comes out of Sanctions.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 9:30 am to GFunk
quote:
Saudi and US get a more stabilized Middle East with Iran less able to project unrest because of their economic issues tied to the price of oil and marketshare issues that Saudis have wrestled control of. They also get a "Nuclear" Iran that's so economically limited that they'll be far, far more subservient actors as a Nation-State.
Opec is now irrelevant for the most part as none of the members really have any spare production capacity available save Saudi Arabia (lots of people question what they can even bring to the table) and the swing barrels have now become American shale oil/tight oil. Saudi Arabia is producing about what they have the last several years so it's not really true that they are "flooding the market". There is definitely a lot of geopolitical turmoil with Venezuela and Russia facing desperate economic times. The whole Syrian civil war is basically a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia for control of the middle east. I don't know what the results will be but it's been pretty apparent that Saudi Arabia does not want a nuclear Iran in the region. How the geopolitics play out and move the price of oil is hard to predict but will have a large impact on the worldwide economy.
Posted on 3/20/15 at 11:05 am to GFunk
A couple things.
Iran is still making $, or would be if the sanctions were dropped, just not near enough to meet their budget.
SAs strategy is a multifaceted win for them with originally their biggest goal imo in stopping US shale production. Now with BO stupid arse trying to give Iran nukes it has likely pushed that to a top priority as well. As stated before US shale is now the swing production. However SA know that many of the shale producers are very over leveraged and a extended time of these depressed prices will sink many. This will have the pieces being picked up by the majors and other corps for cheap who do not have to rely on constant production from these assets. In turn producing them when most valued while keeping the market from becoming over saturated. They gain market share, hurt their biggest competitors and keep the US gov happy.
Iran is still making $, or would be if the sanctions were dropped, just not near enough to meet their budget.
SAs strategy is a multifaceted win for them with originally their biggest goal imo in stopping US shale production. Now with BO stupid arse trying to give Iran nukes it has likely pushed that to a top priority as well. As stated before US shale is now the swing production. However SA know that many of the shale producers are very over leveraged and a extended time of these depressed prices will sink many. This will have the pieces being picked up by the majors and other corps for cheap who do not have to rely on constant production from these assets. In turn producing them when most valued while keeping the market from becoming over saturated. They gain market share, hurt their biggest competitors and keep the US gov happy.
This post was edited on 3/20/15 at 11:07 am
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News