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Started By
Message
re: Report: Police search Jefferson's home
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:15 am to TigerKnights
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:15 am to TigerKnights
quote:
Dude, for real? It is called sarcasm.
1
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:16 am to King Joey
Here is the bottom line. (Cop for 33 year Detective last 17...Homicide for 5 Child Explotation for 12)
Does the average bar fight even where someone receives some (what is being reported as) fairly significant injuries end up with a search warrant being obtained for a suspect's residence (car, boat ect...)...Yes in about 30-35% of cases. Many factors go into the decision though. Potential evidence recovery, caseload (a biggie),victim cooperation and exterior pressure.
Do potentially high profile media cases, rich-powerful-influencial people or the feeling that if you do not give special attention to this one case your agency will come under fire-influence how law enforcement investigates cases (ie "pull out all stops and go overboard")....Hell yes, every day in all 50 states. Sorry but thats the truth.
Without a doubt, LSU football players not involved the BRPD does the best job humanly possible and moves on and none of us hear about the investigation.
Because LSU players involved, these poor cops are going to have to do and redo every part of their investigation 2, 3 and even 4 times just to make everyone know that they are above board and not being partial to the players and believe it or not the Marine involved. My hats off to the investigators in this case. You have no idea the pressure they are under. They are trying to do their best but are no doubt being hammered and pulled from 50 different directions.
Does the average bar fight even where someone receives some (what is being reported as) fairly significant injuries end up with a search warrant being obtained for a suspect's residence (car, boat ect...)...Yes in about 30-35% of cases. Many factors go into the decision though. Potential evidence recovery, caseload (a biggie),victim cooperation and exterior pressure.
Do potentially high profile media cases, rich-powerful-influencial people or the feeling that if you do not give special attention to this one case your agency will come under fire-influence how law enforcement investigates cases (ie "pull out all stops and go overboard")....Hell yes, every day in all 50 states. Sorry but thats the truth.
Without a doubt, LSU football players not involved the BRPD does the best job humanly possible and moves on and none of us hear about the investigation.
Because LSU players involved, these poor cops are going to have to do and redo every part of their investigation 2, 3 and even 4 times just to make everyone know that they are above board and not being partial to the players and believe it or not the Marine involved. My hats off to the investigators in this case. You have no idea the pressure they are under. They are trying to do their best but are no doubt being hammered and pulled from 50 different directions.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:19 am to junkfunky
quote:Whats sarcasm Master?
Dude, for real? It is called sarcasm.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:22 am to King Joey
quote:
Only incredibly ignorant jackasses or flat out liars insist on "a simple yes or no answer" when taking others words out of context like that. Which are you? (feel free to answer however you like)
To give a meaningful answer to the question, 2nd Degree battery can be a serious crime (the sense of "real" clearly intended by my statement), but not all of them are. Literally thousands of 2nd degree batteries have been committed by people who were literally playing a joke on someone that resulted in an unusually bad trip or fall. Clearly those are not serious crimes in the context of all criminal activity confronting the police and populace of Baton Rouge.
I love that statement. If you disagree with me you are either bad thing 1 or bad thing 2 so which is it?
By definition if it wasn't serious it would not be a 2nd degree battery. They would prosecute it as something else or not at all. 2nd degree requires intent and a certain amount of damage or a weapon.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:26 am to Cali-to-Death Valley
quote:What would you say the percentage is like that get search warrants for homes without exterior pressure?
Yes in about 30-35% of cases. Many factors go into the decision though. Potential evidence recovery, caseload (a biggie),victim cooperation and exterior pressure.
quote:I'm sure it's immense, but that doesn't make targeting a particular suspect for enhanced scrutiny because of his celebrity status any more excusable. If the department were receiving intense pressure because a black man was accused of raping a white woman, and as a result went far beyond the normal measures for investigating such cases, do you think "they're under pressure" would work as an excuse for them?
You have no idea the pressure they are under. They are trying to do their best but are no doubt being hammered and pulled from 50 different directions.
I recognize it is a challenge for them, but it is one that it seems to me they have failed in this case.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:27 am to King Joey
(no message)
This post was edited on 8/25/11 at 4:01 am
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:28 am to Cadello
quote:
Whats sarcasm Master?
Serious being I am not. Reflecting absurdity of statements am I. Yoda has spoken.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:33 am to TigerKnights
quote:Actually, "by definition", intent is required for all batteries, and a weapon (technically it has to be a "dangerous weapon") is only required for aggravated battery or aggravated 2nd degree battery. LA R.S. 14:33 et seq.
By definition if it wasn't serious it would not be a 2nd degree battery. They would prosecute it as something else or not at all. 2nd degree requires intent and a certain amount of damage or a weapon.
"By definition"
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:34 am to TigerKnights
That was Gollum
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:43 am to tigerfan1
quote:Because not all felony charges are the same. The nature of 2nd degree batteries committed in the context of bar fights is such that a search warrant is, in my experience, essentially never sought. Clearly some others have had different experiences, but mine has been that you either have enough evidence from the witnesses to proceed with the case and make an arrest, or you don't have enough and a search warrant would only be a fishing expedition that likely shouldn't even be approved by a judge. In order to justify the search warrant, the police would have to have already turned up probable cause that evidence is likely to be found in the location searched. In a case like this, where would that probable cause come from if not from eyewitnesses (or the suspect himself) making statements implicating the suspect in the battery. And if those statements are credible enough for probable cause, then you have a enough for an arrent warrant -- because it has the same probable cause standard as a search warrant. Only if the witnesses gave statements that suggested evidence would be in the suspect's home, but not implicating the suspect directly, would you likely have probable cause for a search warrant without probable cause for an arrest warrant.
Why is it hard to believe that a search warrant could be issued in connection with a felony charge?
So the typical case is that the witnesses either tell a credible story and you have enough to arrest the suspect, or they don't tell a credible story and you don't have enough to continue the investigation further.
Apparently, that narrow-seeming middle ground is found more often than I expected, though it seems that might be the result of special external pressures. Which is precisely the point I am making in this case.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 12:54 am to King Joey
quote:
"By definition"
I'm really struggling to find what exactly you disagree with in my statement? It would appear we agree completely.
Obviously, by definition 2nd degree battery is a serious offense. I totally agree dawg.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 1:05 am to TigerKnights
quote:2nd degree doesn't require a weapon, and the intent requirement is not specific to the 2nd degree battery as you suggested. I was clarifying that the elements you listed in your statement were not germane to the distinction of 2nd degree battery from other forms of battery.
I'm really struggling to find what exactly you disagree with in my statement?
quote:Not at all. Serious is a subjective statement, and there are many, MANY instances where a 2nd degree battery can occur without what most would call a "serious offense". If a guy cuts in front of you at the bar, and you tell him to get back in line, and he tells you to frick off and calls your girlfriend and ugly count, and you push him and he slips and falls into the bar and fractures a vertabrae or three, that's potentially a 2nd degree battery. But few would describe you as having committed a "serious offense".
Obviously, by definition 2nd degree battery is a serious offense.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 1:14 am to King Joey
quote:
2nd degree doesn't require a weapon, and the intent requirement is not specific to the 2nd degree battery as you suggested. I was clarifying that the elements you listed in your statement were not germane to the distinction of 2nd degree battery from other forms of battery.
I said "or" a weapon. I'm sure you may not know what or means. In most states 2nd degree requires serious injury or minor injury from a weapon. In Louisiana it does not so I was unaware of that. Are you saying intent is not required for 2nd degree? I never stated intent is only required for 2nd degree, but thanks for telling me what I said.
quote:
Not at all. Serious is a subjective statement, and there are many, MANY instances where a 2nd degree battery can occur without what most would call a "serious offense". If a guy cuts in front of you at the bar, and you tell him to get back in line, and he tells you to frick off and calls your girlfriend and ugly count, and you push him and he slips and falls into the bar and fractures a vertabrae or three, that's potentially a 2nd degree battery. But few would describe you as having committed a "serious offense".
By definition it requies intent meaning not an accident. A push would not be "intent to cause serious injury" unless you reasonably expected him to shatter some vertebrae. Which would be even less likely to happen by accident. I've fallen numerous times and never shattered a damn vertebrae. Also serious injury meaning, by definition, well "serious" injury. I think you can see what I'm getting at. Maybe I can spell it out for you. s...e...r...i..o...u...s
Posted on 8/25/11 at 1:17 am to Cali-to-Death Valley
quote:
Here is the bottom line. (Cop for 33 year Detective last 17...Homicide for 5 Child Explotation for 12)
Does the average bar fight even where someone receives some (what is being reported as) fairly significant injuries end up with a search warrant being obtained for a suspect's residence (car, boat ect...)...Yes in about 30-35% of cases. Many factors go into the decision though. Potential evidence recovery, caseload (a biggie),victim cooperation and exterior pressure.
Do potentially high profile media cases, rich-powerful-influencial people or the feeling that if you do not give special attention to this one case your agency will come under fire-influence how law enforcement investigates cases (ie "pull out all stops and go overboard")....Hell yes, every day in all 50 states. Sorry but thats the truth.
Without a doubt, LSU football players not involved the BRPD does the best job humanly possible and moves on and none of us hear about the investigation.
Because LSU players involved, these poor cops are going to have to do and redo every part of their investigation 2, 3 and even 4 times just to make everyone know that they are above board and not being partial to the players and believe it or not the Marine involved. My hats off to the investigators in this case. You have no idea the pressure they are under. They are trying to do their best but are no doubt being hammered and pulled from 50 different directions.
Truth.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 1:24 am to TigerKnights
quote:Which may or may not be proven in court, which makes it a matter for the trier of fact (usually a jury). That is why I described the hypothetical as a "potential" 2nd degree battery.
By definition it requies intent meaning not an accident. A push would not be "intent to cause serious injury" unless you reasonably expected him to shatter some vertebrae
quote:So if the victim is cleared to, say, play football this weekend (which people have done 10 days after suffering three fractured vertebrae), would his injury still be "serious"? What if he were cleared to play football, or engage in hand to hand combat training, or compete in an MMA match, or whatever, the day after it happened? We don't know anything about his injuries at this point except that it is reported that they included 3 fractured vertebrae, which can range from very serious to not very serious injuries. None of my statements have commented on the nature of all 2nd degree batteries, all 2nd degree batteries involved fractured vertebrae, or even necessarily this particular potential 2nd degree battery. All I have said is that this incident may not have involved what most would consider a "serious offense." We don't even know that the video being distributed is of this incident, and it is impossible to be certain that the video even indeed shows someone being kicked. If you think it does, imagine the victim died and picture yourself on a jury contemplating a death penalty for the person doing the kicking; would you be willing to end a human being's life on your absolute certainty that you see a man kicking another man in the head on that video?
Maybe I can spell it out for you. s...e...r...i..o...u...s
I sure as hell couldn't make that call based on the video I saw.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 1:33 am to King Joey
quote:
So if the victim is cleared to, say, play football this weekend (which people have done 10 days after suffering three fractured vertebrae), would his injury still be "serious"? What if he were cleared to play football, or engage in hand to hand combat training, or compete in an MMA match, or whatever, the day after it happened? We don't know anything about his injuries at this point except that it is reported that they included 3 fractured vertebrae, which can range from very serious to not very serious injuries. None of my statements have commented on the nature of all 2nd degree batteries, all 2nd degree batteries involved fractured vertebrae, or even necessarily this particular potential 2nd degree battery. All I have said is that this incident may not have involved what most would consider a "serious offense." We don't even know that the video being distributed is of this incident, and it is impossible to be certain that the video even indeed shows someone being kicked. If you think it does, imagine the victim died and picture yourself on a jury contemplating a death penalty for the person doing the kicking; would you be willing to end a human being's life on your absolute certainty that you see a man kicking another man in the head on that video?
Certainty that it is JJ? Of course not. Certainty that I see someone getting kicked in the head. Yes. If you expect 100% conclusive unquestionable evidence to prove a case 99% of criminals will all walk.
My point is that if it is not serious they wouldn't pursue 2nd degree battery. I believe since the police are pursuing that charge means it was a serious fracture and not a minor one. If someone fractured vertebrae, but it was minor they would at the very least have difficulty trying to get a 2nd degree charge.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 1:41 am to TigerKnights
quote:Seriously? You are absolutely certain that you see a man kick another man in the head in that video? It couldn't be that he swung his foot and barely missed, or that he was hopping and his foot came down next to the guys head, or anything like that?
Certainty that I see someone getting kicked in the head. Yes
I guess you have a much better video setup than I have, or magic auto-focus eyes. Because I could barely make out one person from another, much less discern with any certainty what each of their extremeties were doing.
I'm pretty confident that I saw a person on the ground, on hands and knees (it seemed). And bunch of other people. That was about all I could make out for certain.
quote:That's a fine belief to have, but unfortunately it is not one that is always borne out by reality. Unfortunately, cops make bad decisions and bad judgments just like the rest of us. Perhaps in this case they didn't, and it's just pure coincidence that the extremely rare instance of a bar fight investigation legitimately necessitating a search warrant of a suspect's home just happened to also be the extremely rare instance of that suspect being a big celebrity drawing tons of media attention. It's always possible.
My point is that if it is not serious they wouldn't pursue 2nd degree battery. I believe since the police are pursuing that charge means it was a serious fracture and not a minor one.
But I'm usually pretty skeptical of coincidences when it come to crime and the criminal justice system. If a case involves unusual suspects or unusual victims, and an unusual procedure occurs, the safe money is on there being a connection.
Posted on 8/25/11 at 3:41 am to Red Drum
with searches like this, maybe we can get the br police to
a find jimmy hoffa
b Find d b cooper
c Find the real murderer of oj's wife/boyfriend
d Find jim leslie's murderer
e. Find the deduct box
f. Find out whose bullet killed Huey long
g. Solve mystery of Bo rein's plane crash
h. find Amelia earhardt
a find jimmy hoffa
b Find d b cooper
c Find the real murderer of oj's wife/boyfriend
d Find jim leslie's murderer
e. Find the deduct box
f. Find out whose bullet killed Huey long
g. Solve mystery of Bo rein's plane crash
h. find Amelia earhardt
Posted on 8/25/11 at 10:57 am to lsucapt
I am too lazy to read 36 pages....but are charges serious enough for all of this. I mean at the end of the day......will jail time be handed out. Because I have seen some serious fights. Hell you can youtube fights and no one does time for this crap.
So what are we really looking at here. Misdemeanors, community services. Probation????? What???
So what are we really looking at here. Misdemeanors, community services. Probation????? What???
Posted on 8/25/11 at 11:04 am to sheek
quote:
the advocate pulled the story off their website. pussies.
It's cool. I printed the article to PDF if anyone wants it
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