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re: Pick off of Josh Smith

Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:21 pm to
Posted by MOT
Member since Jul 2006
28012 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:21 pm to
No, it wasn’t even a good balk move. The knee buckle is subtle in those cases. This one was obvious without a slow replay from a different angle.
Posted by tigerfoot
Alexandria
Member since Sep 2006
56561 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:24 pm to
quote:

Was his natural motion. Always pitched from the stretch position.
Irrelevant


A pitcher can not start his motion to home and stop. If it is long enough to make you say, wtf? It is long enough.
quote:

makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;

Does not matter. There are rules in place. Ask yourself, how many major leaguers are you seeing doing it? None, ever. Because it is illegal. It is illegal in youth baseball, LHSAA, NCAA, and MLB.

quote:

According to Jaska/Roder, authors of "The Rules of Professional Baseball: A Comprehensive Reorganization and Clarification," hanging the leg for a split second is a balk because the pitcher has failed to pitch or throw in a continuous motion without hesitation or interruption. J/R doesn't mention anything about any other body part moving at the time - just hanging the leg.

Here's the wording from Jaska/Roder:
It is a balk if a pitcher:
1. Hesitates in, or interrupts his motion to join hands, pitch, throw or disengage.
Examples:
b. R1. A left-handed pitcher lifts his free foot and suspends it still for a split second before proceeding in his motion to throw: hesitation, balk

Posted by tigerfoot
Alexandria
Member since Sep 2006
56561 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:25 pm to
quote:

No, it wasn’t even a good balk move
Smith sure saw it instantaneously.
Posted by tigerfoot
Alexandria
Member since Sep 2006
56561 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

No he didn’t.
yes, he did. Every time.
Posted by Yewkindewit
Near Birmingham, Alabama
Member since Apr 2012
20113 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:31 pm to
Obvious balk when pitcher wriggled his front leg. TV replay was very clear!
Posted by Meauxjeaux
98836 posts including my alters
Member since Jun 2005
40382 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:41 pm to
quote:

Balk
SECTION 3? A balk shall be called for the following action by a pitcher:
a? From a pitching position, any feinting motion (without completing the throw) toward the batter or toward first base when it is occupied by a runner;
b? When, before throwing to any base from a pitching position, the pitcher feints a throw to a base and, without breaking contact with the rubber,
throws to another base;
A.R. On the attempted pick-off play where the pitcher fakes a throw to third base and then throws to first base, the pitcher:
1) Must step directly and gain ground toward third base;
2) Must break contact with the rubber before throwing to first; and
3) Need not feint a throw to third; however, if the pitcher does, the feint
must be directed toward third base?
c? While in a pitching position, throw to any base in an attempt to retire a
runner without first stepping directly toward such base; or throw or feint a throw toward any base when it is not an attempt to retire a runner or prevent the runner from advancing;
1) The pitcher, while touching the pitcher’s rubber, must step toward the
base, preceding or simultaneous with any move toward that base? The pitcher is committed, upon raising the lead leg, to throw to the base being faced, to second base or to the plate? When throwing or feinting a throw to a base not being faced, the pitcher must step immediately, directly and gain ground toward that base?
A.R. If the pitcher throws to the first baseman who is playing off the base, a balk shall not be called if the fielder moves toward first base in an attempt to retire the runner?
rUle 9 / PItChIng 87
2) The “spin” or “open” move to second base is legal if the pitcher raises the lead leg and immediately, with a continuous motion, steps directly toward second base? The pitcher need not throw?
3) The pitcher shall step “ahead of the throw?” A snap throw followed by a step directly toward the base is a balk?
4) The pitcher may not prematurely flex either leg before stepping directly and throwing to first base?
5) The jump-turn move is legal if the pitcher’s free foot steps toward and gains ground to the base that the ball is being thrown? Otherwise, a balk shall be called?
6) Stepping toward either second or third base without completing the throw is legal if the base is occupied by a runner or there is an attempt to retire a runner?
d? Making an illegal pitch, such as a quick pitch;
A.R. If a runner on third base breaks for home plate, the pitcher may speed up the delivery but must continue to use a normal pitching sequence and arm action?
e? Unnecessarily delaying the game;
f? While not in possession of the ball, the pitcher stands with either foot or
both feet on any part of the dirt area (circle) of the mound during a hidden-
ball-play attempt;
g? Failingtothrowtothebatterimmediatelyaftermakinganymotionwithany
part of the body such as the pitcher habitually uses in the delivery;
A.R. Ifthepitcher,witharunneronbase,stopsorhesitatesthedeliverybecausethe batter steps out of the box, holds up a hand or uses any other action as if calling time, it shall not be a balk? The rule has been violated by both the batter and the pitcher, and the umpire shall call “Time” and begin the play anew?
h? The pitcher takes either hand off the ball after having taken a stretch or set position unless making a pitch or throwing to any base;
i? The pitcher pitches while the catcher is not in the catcher’s box? The catcher must have both feet within the catcher’s box until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand;
j? The pitcher delivers the pitch from the set position without coming to a complete and discernible stop, or the pitcher comes to more than one stop from the set position (see 9-1-b);
A.R. With the bases unoccupied, the pitcher does not need to come to a complete and discernible stop?
k? From the windup position, the pitcher makes more than two pumping motions before delivering to the plate;
l? From the set position, if the entire free foot or any part of the stride leg breaks the plane of the back edge of the pitcher’s rubber and the pitcher does not throw or feint a motion to second base or pitch to home plate (see 9-1-b-[3]); and
m? When the pitcher makes a natural pitching motion while not touching the pitcher’s rubber?
PENALTY for a. through m.—Balk. The ball becomes dead and each runner must advance one base.
1) If the balk immediately is followed by a pitch that permits the batter and each runner to advance a minimum of one base, the balk is ignored and the ball remains live?

88 rUle 9 / PItChIng
A.R. After a balk that is followed by a base hit, a runner who misses the first base to which the runner is advancing and who, before the next pitch, is called out on appeal, shall be considered as having advanced one base for the purpose of this rule?
Example: The batter and all runner(s) advance when a wild pitch is either ball four or strike three.
2) If a balk immediately is followed by a wild throw by the pitcher to a base that permits a runner(s) to advance to or beyond the base to which that runner is entitled, the balk shall be acknowledged? The umpire will call the balk in the usual manner, but shall not call “Time” until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and/or a fielder is in possession of the ball in the infield)?
3) If only the runner advances to or beyond the base to which he is entitled because of a wild pitch after a balk, the balk is still acknowledged?
A.R.1 Arunner(s)mayadvancebeyondthebasethatisentitledattherunner’sown risk?
A.R.2 Whenabalkoccurs,thepitchisnullifiedandthebatterwillresumetheat-bat with the count that existed unless:
a) The wild pitch was ball four on which all runners (including the batter-runner) advanced one base?
b) The wild pitch was strike three on which the batter and all other runners advanced one base?
In both situations (a) and (b) above, play proceeds without reference to the balk, because all runners (including the batter-runner) advanced one base on the pitch after the balk?
A.R. 3 If the balk is followed by a wild pitch that allows a runner to attempt to go beyond the base that he would have been awarded because of the balk, the runner advances at his own risk; he is either safe or out as a result of the play? The balk is still “acknowledged” as it relates to the batter and he will resume the at-bat with the count that existed when the balk occurred?


NCAA rules.

Zero discussion of a hesitation in leg lift of the delivery.
Posted by sharkfhin
Over der
Member since Sep 2008
2339 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:48 pm to
that lefty move, it can be deadly but even then if u practice against it ,can help...

the pick move last night was a move often used in hs/ college...some pitchers get away with it the "first time", second time, umpires usually are watching for it again....in mlb....youll get banged for that balk right away, so pitchers wont even try it....

its where the righty slightly get "air" under his left(simulating delivery) foot barely enough to fool the runner but the pitcher dam near simutaneously tilts his backside and snap picks first base...u can easily read it only if your expecting it, the first time, after u see it, base runners become quickly familiar at the movt...usually the pitcher got banged on it by then....
Posted by Meauxjeaux
98836 posts including my alters
Member since Jun 2005
40382 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:49 pm to
Not a balk...



ETA: not sure if any runners on base, but if there were not,: Not an illegal pitch...
This post was edited on 5/4/19 at 1:52 pm
Posted by tigerfoot
Alexandria
Member since Sep 2006
56561 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:50 pm to
These are rules, not discussion.

6g is clear. Once you pick your leg up, you naturally go to first or you go home as a lefty....period. The hanging leg is illegal.

There is even discussion among people that if the pitcher has hands moving it could be legal, it is not.


The only time he is absolved of the balk is if the batter made an illegal act at the same time, causing the disruption.
Posted by tigerfoot
Alexandria
Member since Sep 2006
56561 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:51 pm to
If there are runners on, yes, it is.
Posted by sharkfhin
Over der
Member since Sep 2008
2339 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:52 pm to
because that has been determined thats his natural delivery..if he does that with runners on 1st...he getting stole on, not to mention once he starts his pitching(stretch or windup) motion, he has to pitch to the batter or its a balk.... lol
This post was edited on 5/4/19 at 1:55 pm
Posted by Meauxjeaux
98836 posts including my alters
Member since Jun 2005
40382 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:54 pm to
quote:

If there are runners on, yes, it is.


Edited my post to account for runners or no runners.

That move is legal.
Posted by Meauxjeaux
98836 posts including my alters
Member since Jun 2005
40382 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:55 pm to
As a righty I agree. As a lefty, not getting stole on.

This part of this discussion is about a lefty.
Posted by MOT
Member since Jul 2006
28012 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 1:57 pm to
The apples to apples comparison to the other poster’s scenario would be if there was a runner on third in that gif.
Posted by Meauxjeaux
98836 posts including my alters
Member since Jun 2005
40382 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 2:00 pm to
quote:

6g is clear. Once you pick your leg up, you naturally go to first or you go home as a lefty....period. The hanging leg is illegal.


It’s nit a delivery to the plate until the pitcher commits to going to the plate.

And since I feel like being an arse....

quote:

Once you pick your leg up, you naturally go to first or you go home as a lefty....period.


You can also go to second.....
Posted by vjp819
South Sec. 414 / Alex Box Sec. 210
Member since Nov 2003
10882 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 2:03 pm to
quote:

Looks like the umpire crew missed it too.


it's odd that they all missed something that was so obvious, because 90 times out of 100 the umps are the only people who even notice a balk. when people in the stands yell balk, it's not a balk. The pitcher made a good move, and Josh got caught asleep. Hey it happens.
Posted by Purplengoldtigerfan
Eunice
Member since Sep 2015
906 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 2:05 pm to
A lot of pitchers use this move. We even did it in high school because umpires are mainly looking at the shoulders of the pitcher. It’s not anything on Smith. So you saying he’s not paying attention.... you really are showing how much of an idiot you are. Because as a base runner you are watching the heels of the pitcher... specifically the right heel. When a pitcher picks up his left foot he has to go home in the scenario that played out last night. So anyone would have gotten picked off. It’s a hard move to catch unless your focusing on it as an umpire.
Posted by tigerfoot
Alexandria
Member since Sep 2006
56561 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 2:06 pm to
quote:

but if there were not,: Not an illegal pitch...



Just google hanging leg move and the legality of such, you will see plenty of umpire forums from USSSA, NCAA or MLB that discuss it and declare it is a balk...plain as day.


Or just go with the language that a pitcher can not cease his motion once started.

I saw this balk correctly called in USSSA baseball and LHSAA baseball within the last month.
Posted by tigerfoot
Alexandria
Member since Sep 2006
56561 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 2:07 pm to
quote:

And since I feel like being an arse....
Being wrong does that to my wife too.
Posted by sharkfhin
Over der
Member since Sep 2008
2339 posts
Posted on 5/4/19 at 2:17 pm to
thanks for the compliment bro

however i didnt say he doesnt know how to focus in based on what he is taught and yes the heels not shoulders and yes if he had been focused in he wouldn't have been picked , for whatever reason he didnt even move...wasnt focusing....if he had been actually focused in and broke on the move being fooled...i could see, focused in and standing there? no...his eyes drifted for a second and he got snucked ..he should have been back to the bag unless he had a first move on(with a righty, highly doubtful)..then he just got fricked but dont just stand there...eor...

btw if you think umpires are watching the shoulders of a pitcher in hs,ncaa or mlb your severly mis informed
This post was edited on 5/4/19 at 2:21 pm
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