re: LSU softball batting anaylsis by player

Bait, I love you and always read your post but I have to challenge you on some of the ridiculousness in your post.

First off, serious question, do you actually watch the games? Do you make your own analysis that your own eyes give you or do you take info from other parties and only look to toe the party line?

I have watched every game this spring (and for quite a number of springs), every game this pre-spring and every game but one this fall. I have probably seen many of these players play more than anyone other than their own parents so my statements are based on first hand viewing.

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The staff has given Dawson a few starts this past couple weeks at 2B.

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This is simply false. A couple of starts in a couple of weeks and one of them with no AB's? For whatever reason, Dawson has been given no shot.

She has had far better overall at bats than Quinn. But you continue to miss the bigger point of the debate. This is not about Dawson, forget Dawson, it is about LSU Softball.

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its up to her to be productive and make something happen if she wants a shot.

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The statement you make above on production needs to be reversed. Why is Quinn not held to the same standard of production as every other position player? Perfect example is left field. Players get one game, don't do well they are cycled out the next game. None have been given 3 or 4 starts to see what they can do. Why don't we use the same standard of production at 2nd base? Why is this the only position that can be 0 for a week or even 0 for a series and we will see no serious change considered?

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If Quinn is serviceable, can get a hit or two a game and doesn't continue to make countless errors, shes not losing her position.

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Since when did the standard of a top tier program become having a "serviceable" senior on the field? LSU is much better than this and has depth this year to be better. Use these reps to prepare the young players on the team rather it be Sanchez, Doyle or Dawson. "Serviceable" doesn't build the program and loses valuable experience for the much higher ceiling underclassmen.

If she "doesn't continue to make countless errors" Think about what you're saying right here and rationally figure out how you can even defend that statement? Are you saying, okay, we know she is bad but let's cross our fingers and hope to the heavens we miraculously get better in the last 2/3 of the final season of a career when all data says it will not happen? You know the definition of insanity, right?

A hit or two a game? Are you serious, of course we would take that. For the last year, we have been seeing a hit or two a week from this position. We are no longer "early" in the season. We are roughly 1/3 of the way through coming up on SEC play and are still regressing at this one position. Why is this acceptable to you, any fan or anyone associated with the program?

We know what to expect from Quinn, we have no idea what to expect from Dawson. We have been so bad at 2nd for a while why not put Sanchez there and put Doyle at 3rd? We have options that the staff refuses to even consider.

I believe it is deeper than just softball. The historical, statistical and empirical data cannot justify why the staff is so dead set in accepting such below average play when we have real options to be better.

I love Beth and I have always supported this staff but this position has been an eye sore for more than a couple of years and no one seems to care or wonder why the program accepts it.

Even a loyal fan like you cannot actually believe a "serviceable" 200 hitter is the best option now or for the next two or three years for a program trying to win an NC.

And to be fair, I know when Quinn is bad, its pretty ugly

But when she is on, watch out. She literally was the reason we went to the world series last year. That game saving defensive play, which really should been called a double play... was crucial.

I just think Torina likes her out there because shes a senior leader who brings comfort and confidence to the rest of her teammates. She has shown she can hit top pitching, now consistently? Not so much. Lets see how things shape out this weekend. If she does really poor against some of these teams, then I definitely think some criticism might be warranted.
She did look much better at the plate this past weekend. So we will see

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Don't get me started on the umpiring from that Super Regional last year..Agree with you on everything you posted by the way.

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I swear to god, I watched with my dad and he was cursing at the tv. Some of the worst umpiring I have ever seen. They missed some big calls. According to them, it can't be called a strike if the ball is thrown down main street USA

I hate to keep talking about Dawson because she is done for the year but I will comment on your points. I appreciate a cool discussion without all of the attacks! Everybody that reads these threads knows I believe she is the best pre-college player I have ever evaluated. Only the two Baileys, Hemphill and Landry are even on the same planet.

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People were building her up to almost be the best player to ever come through LSU, almost depicting her as the face of the program.

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She is the best position player recruit in Softball history and that is of course going to get people excited. I noticed the staff down played her accomplishments throughout her recruitment and signing period. While every other sport is purchasing billboards around the state promoting recruits softball was instead hiding her accomplishments and removing them from the boards. I never understood this. Can you imagine another sport with a National Player of the Year and consensus 1st team All American signee? It would have been a shite storm of promotion. I believe the staff bought in to the notion that she is somehow a great athlete that didn't know how to play or the old "she is not from Cali so she must not be very good" stuff. Perception is sometime reality.

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Everyone is acting like Dawson is head and shoulders above everyone else. Talent does not equate to production always.

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She is head and shoulders physically above everyone else. Her talent has always equated to production when she plays. Remember this is a player that played on the same level as Thornhill, Weinberger, Landry and was so dominate over them it was immeasurable. I thought Landry was one of the best Louisiana players in history. Last year LA produced the best two players to ever come from this state. Dawson out hit and out performed all of the big dogs in the highest level travel tourneys this last year. Some people get caught up with her speed and athleticism and forget that she is one of the best offensive players that has ever been seen on the pre-college level. It's almost as if sometimes being so athletic hurts her because that is the focus of attention. This girl can flat out hit and has proven it on every single level. Her game is offense and she is devastating when right.

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Funny as soon as Dawson got her first hit we had a shite load of random posters jumping in telling people off but as soon as she went games going hitless and struggling at the plate, no one is to be heard

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That was part of the problem, she got her first start and played extremely well. Extra base hit, great defense, stolen bases, runs scored and Quinn was hitting a 100. After this terrific debut, she didn't play again for 5 or 6 games. Dawson never struggled at the plate and was a run scoring machine early. She performed well when given limited appearances.

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Listen no doubt she is a far better talent than Quinn.

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So if this is the case, and we know Quinn is a 200 hitter and defensive liability why would you continue to play the senior with no upside? How does this help the program? Get the "far better talent" the reps so we see dividends in the future.

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maybe she is not quite as polished to transition as people may think.

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There has been no data to suggest this. She has succeeded in every forum from the highest level of travel ball to having a good fall and very good pre-spring on one of the best college teams on the planet. She was never overmatched.

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Question do you really think Torina has an agenda to play Quinn

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In this case, yes I do. The staff has decided to go with Quinn and accept a limited production with no upside for the future. As stated, if they really believe (and they do) that Dawson can't play, Sanchez can play second and Doyle is a very good third baseman. Sanchez was at 2nd all fall and asked to be moved to third because she did not believe she could beat out Dawson. There is zero analysis that can justify Quinn at 2nd other than agenda. No available data can justify the performance that we have witnessed for the last few seasons at 2nd. LSU is way to good to accept this.

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I am sure Dawson will get playing time this weekend as well.

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Remember, we are about 1/3 through the season. I believe she may get a game this weekend but she is done. With 8 at bats and SEC play coming up there is simply no way this player can now be prepared to be thrown in to SEC play with no preparation. The reason you get players 40 at bats pre-SEC is so they are ready to go when it counts. In my opinion, her looks are done and no longer serious barring an injury. Why would you bench her all year and then throw her out there for SEC play? That would be as irrational as everything else regarding 2nd base.

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I am surprised Cunningham hasn't gotten looks on the infield

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Cunningham is in a bit of a different situation considering she is planted behind the best catcher in the country. Although I agree, when in doubt you always play the younger player and she also has experience at 2nd. Weinberger is similar considering she will probably be given a shot in right field next year and sits behind another All American.

In closing, I believe the 2nd base situation has been a disaster this season (and last) and has been completely botched by the staff. Sanchez, Cunningham, Doyle and Dawson are all much better options to be shuffled around and most importantly they all have more upside and multiple years left to contribute. Reps on a low performing senior at this point are a complete waste of time for the program. I get it, the staff wants to give the Sr. a chance hoping she will turn the corner. But when it is obviously not happening you move on and build the program. If you are going to accept low performance at any position you only do so in order to build for the future with a young, high ceiling player like those mentioned.

Thanks against for an honest debate. This is the best part of the board when it works this way.

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I believe the staff bought in to the notion that she is somehow a great athlete that didn't know how to play or the old "she is not from Cali so she must not be very good" stuff. Perception is sometime reality.

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I'm just going to avoid the Dawson vortex but who do we have from Cali that shouldn't be playing? Also why is Thornhill playing if they think this?

I was just starting to enjoy this thread until it turned into the Nicki Dawson love fest again.

Let's get back on topic:

GRIGGS all she has done for us over the last 3 years now is play almost every single game since she walked on campus. She has hit 300 or better every year I think. Made freshman all SEC and from what I can read has made 2 errors in 3 years. Made team USA 2 years in a row

My take is that she needs to be faster than she is. Seems to have slowed down since freshman year. Needs to power slap like she did her freshman year. She came out of a great program and was one of the top recruits in the country. Do I think she is great, no, but I can't see why we complain about her, people tell me there is a bias against her

LANDRY. What is there to say about a kid that many colleges didn't even look at. She has hit at an amazing level since her freshman year. For 4 years she has done nothing but produce at the plate. She is an AA and made team USA. She isn't the greatest OF defensively, but anyone in the country would take her offense and look past her defense. I believe defensively she is above average, but at the plate she is in a class above most

JAQUISH. 4 years of her has done exactly what everyone thought it would do for a program. She is on the verge of setting all new offensive records she has played multiple positions and has had many key hits. She is also an AA and plays for her national team. My take is easy...everyone in the country knew this kid was a no brainer. Her issues have to do with her own selfishness sometimes, and she is nowhere near the best catcher in the country. However, she is way above average and her offense makes up for the little that she is missing behind the plate

Doyle from what I see, she is everything that people said she was. She was a solid corner with power and great offense potential. So far so good. Comes out of a top organization was highly recruited, made team USA Jr. National team. I like what she has given us thus far.

SPRINGFIELD has done better than most have thought she would have done this early. She wasn't a major recruit throughout the country, but she is proving some of those rankings wrong so far. I like what I see on the field and really admire her hustle.

**THE 2 PLAYERS ABOVE ARE FRESHMAN AND WE HAVE NOT STARTED SEC PLAY, LOT OF THINGS CHANGE WHEN OTHER SCHOOLS HAVE A BOOK ON YOU*

SANCHEZ. a player that most gave up on last year. Not knowing she battles a illness that didn't allow her to be herself last year. She is now playing the way most recruiting rankings had her performing. She also plays for her National team. I am not surprised at the way she is playing, we'll maybe a little surprised how good her transition from second to third has been

SERRETT. As good of defensive shortstop as there is in college ball. Yes her hitting struggled a little last year at the end, but I think if she finds her swing that she had most of her life (like she has now) I think she is going to be a pleasant surprise for us this year.

That brings us to 2 positions. LF and 2B

I am not as big on Andrew's as the rest of you. Yes she can run, but she get horrible.reads on balls..hence the reason she dives so much. She has a below average arm, with no accuracy and has a lot to learn on how to play the game. Offensively she is almost the easiest out in the lineup. Nobody is afraid of her hitting the ball in the outfield...so come SEC time..if she is in there, you will see some pretty crazy defensive positioning when she is up. Tap slapping or soft slapping is a one dimensional offensive thing...it doesn't cut it in the SEC. I would put Thornhill in left. She is going to make contact, going to make her Pl as in left, and if we need a.pinch runner for her speed...there are plenty of options on the bench with speed

2b. I won't be a person that sits here and defends Connie on her game. I like the rest of you have watched for 4 years her not get any better at the plate. I blame our hitting coach for that. However, constance brings something to this team...some energy or something. She is a leader on this team and maybe that's why she gets the starting nod.

I won't even address the Dawson situation...but let's just say, I would never EVER put her in the elite players class coming out of high school. I can't be too wrong, as she wasn't even considered a big recruit. No invites to Jr National team. Good athlete and great speed..I just don't see the greatness everyone talks about. Would love to be proven wrong

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who do we have from Cali that shouldn't be playing? Also why is Thornhill playing if they think this?

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None. They should be. The comparison was made based on other analysis. Doyle, who I watched multiple games before she came to LSU, is going to be an excellent player. But, she was absolutely pathetic this fall and had 2 hits in all games combined. She was really, really bad but despite this performance it was never considered that she would not be given the opportunity since she was a good player from a good league.



I get it, but if it was based solely on what her history predicted and not what she did in the fall or the pre-spring. If it was based on her fall and pre-spring she would have never seen the field. In this case it seemed to not matter that she was really struggling and only matter that she was good before college with upside. In my opinion, that is the bias of Cali players. They have to prove over and over that they can't play while a kid from a small state doesn't meet the same burden.

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In my opinion, that is the bias of Cali players. They have to prove over and over that they can't play while a kid from a small state doesn't meet the same burden.

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This simply isn't true.

Everyone needs to step back and take the blinders off.

This is the biggest and most absurd conspiracy of all LSU sports. So basically we have a coach and a staff that recruited Dawson because she was a good athlete who didn't know how to play. You say that the staff has put down and diminished her accomplishments, to make her seem average and not dependable. All in order to secure Connies spot at 2B for her senior year. And you are now saying Dawson isn't playing because certain players from certain state are allowed to f up a lot more than others?

People don't seem to understand the importance of these practices which no one sees. Yes Doyle was going to see opportunities regardless because of how much potential she had at the plate, this team desperately needed more power. She has looked great in practice according to Torina. She doesn't freak out over fall games or small scrimmages because things change drastically

ok i am going to get slammed for what i am about to say, but I am really big on technique and mechanics.

Dont get mad, now.....

One of the reasons Dawson is not at second base is that she does not have good throwing mechanics. She has no wrist-flick, when they were warming up, unless she was playing around, I could not believe how poorly she throws..

Connie is a much, much more natural softball player than Dawson is. Dawson can pick up a ground ball as good as anyone, and she can move over in front of a ball faster than anyone else, but her arm is a liability. True, that's something that was deduced from pre-game warm ups, but if you know throwing mechanics, you know she is suffering there. thats an opinion. Maybe she was just playing around. she has no overhand throw that most ball players usually have. Most go 3/4 overhand than then sidearm when they have to, but she all sidearm, and doesnt seem to use her wrist when she throws. i bet that is the reason we dont see her out there.

I am sure she can hit, bunt, slap, hit for power.... but i think Beth has Connie out there because she is a more natural player, and bad mechanics usually does a person in eventually.

Someone laid blame on the batting coach for Connie's hitting. I don't "blame" him, but i would definitely step in and make changes if i were he.

Look at ULL and Oklahoma. Watch their hitters. Their batting coach's philosophy is visible, watch them when they step up to bat and take a few swings, watch ULL they all do the same thing.

Oklahoma's hitters all elevate themselves and you can see they've been worked with.

Sorry i had to slam Nicky, i dont have anything against her.. she seems to be a good kid with a good attitude. I just think Beth sees Quinn as more a natural second baseman with a better arm. No offense intended.

yeah and i really do not like Oklahoma at all. I was disgusted Aurburn choked last year. Emily had a bad game at second base. They wont win this year. Wichita State had them beat yesterday but they changed pitchers and messed it all up.