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Freshmen QBs and development
Posted on 9/8/16 at 8:42 pm
Posted on 9/8/16 at 8:42 pm
Many think LSU's offensive problems is related to QB development. I watched Texas, Fla State, and Alabama all with freshmen QBs and they all did well. You can not say they did well because they are well developed before the season started. Their decision making is mostly instinctive and they play with confidence. It seems to me Harris just doesn't have that needed moxie that allows him to carry the team.
6
Posted on 9/8/16 at 9:09 pm to CalTiger53
Im not a professional, but his release also looks kinda funky. Like he swings kind of sideways and then brings it up. Idk it's most likely just me, but I feel maybe that's what's also causing him to mess up his throws.
Posted on 9/8/16 at 9:14 pm to CalTiger53
As one analyst broke it down Monday evening.
Those qb's you mentioned are put in a system that limits reads. Quick decisions or underneath stuff all while constantly facing the field.
They said cam's offense from under center constantly makes the qb, like Drew Bree's and such, have their back to the field while dropping back. Once they hit their 5 or 7 step drop, it becomes a progression. We are told miles and co only want him hitting first read and go with the play. Not sure how true that is.
Either way, it's a progression after a drop with their back to the defense. Much different from being in the gun and having plays called where it's quick hits with underneath options or run if needed.
Those qb's you mentioned are put in a system that limits reads. Quick decisions or underneath stuff all while constantly facing the field.
They said cam's offense from under center constantly makes the qb, like Drew Bree's and such, have their back to the field while dropping back. Once they hit their 5 or 7 step drop, it becomes a progression. We are told miles and co only want him hitting first read and go with the play. Not sure how true that is.
Either way, it's a progression after a drop with their back to the defense. Much different from being in the gun and having plays called where it's quick hits with underneath options or run if needed.
This post was edited on 9/8/16 at 9:18 pm
Posted on 9/8/16 at 9:20 pm to caliegeaux
Agree. A lot of playaction and having back to the offense is hard for QBs sometimes. They cant see things developing and have to be good decision makers. I would like to see majority of pistol or shotgun for Harris to get comfortable and then playaction if needed.
Posted on 9/8/16 at 9:30 pm to caliegeaux
quote:
Once they hit their 5 or 7 step drop, it becomes a progression.
The offense hardly uses the 3 step drop but we saw it on the quick pass to Dural for the touchdown. The steps in the drop are timing mechanisms & the routes being run by the receivers in the play call are based off the drop. 3 step drops are shortest routes & play is designed for the ball to come out quickly. 5 step drops, go along with your intermediate routes 10-15 yards. 7 step drops are the deepest routes in the route tree.
quote:
Either way, it's a progression after a drop with their back to the defense.
Only time a QB completely turns his back to the defense in any drop is when the QB is performing play action. This doesn't occur on every drop back.
Posted on 9/8/16 at 9:49 pm to 7Tiger7
quote:
A lot of playaction and having back to the offense is hard for QBs sometimes.
I don't think play action is ever a problem when you have a running back like Leonard Fournette. The problem is the lack of route options being given to the receivers. It's either short or deep, with nothing ever being thrown intermediate or over the middle. They don't even attack certain parts of the field which allows defenses to completely disregard certain zones because they know it wouldn’t be threatened.
This causes two things to occur. One, it allows opposing corners to play our receivers really close because those corners know that they only have a 2-3 routes the receivers will run. It's why our receivers get no big separation. It makes for tight windows to throw to. You can tell Harris is being taught to throw to Dupre high, where only Malachi can get it in tight coverage but too often he throws too high. He's being asked to make perfect NFL throws on a regular basis. That's bullshite.
Secondly, since the middle of field isn't being attacked, it allows opposing DCs to have their ILBs & safeties to take risk being aggressive attacking the A & B gaps whether it's run or pass. We saw this over & over again against Wisconsin. It's also the same philosophy we saw Alabama, Ole Miss & Arkansas use against the team last year. Until the offense begins to attack the area above the ILBs & in front of the safeties, defenses will continue to aggressively attack those gaps.
This post was edited on 9/8/16 at 10:09 pm
Posted on 9/8/16 at 10:08 pm to CalTiger53
quote:
Their decision making is mostly instinctive and they play with confidence.
That's because those quarterbacks AND THEIR RECEIVERS are being given more options as for formations & routes go. There is actual deception involved in the offensive scheming which causes opposing defenders to actually think. When defenders have to think, they don't always guess right even if only a misstep in the wrong direction but even that will allow separation to occur for a receiver giving the QB an open target to throw to.
quote:
It seems to me Harris just doesn't have that needed moxie that allows him to carry the team.
This isn't the case. Both Harris & the receivers are being asked to work miracles instead them having an offensive game plan built around them to make their lives easier. I wish fans would stop with this Harris doesn't have moxie or lacks intelligence bullshite. He isn't even being given a chance to be successful. The receivers either. I guarantee you that Miles took away Harris' ability to audible this game out of fear of the crowd noise & other players not being able to hear the changes at the line. They prepared for the game offensively like a hostile road SEC game when they should have come out guns blazing, aiming to points on the board. That shuts a crowd up too.
This wasn't the first time Miles has had such a ridiculous offensive game plan for a "road" game. The game at Arkansas 2 years ago was thought out because there was talk of snow for that game. They went up to Arkansas with a plan to strictly run the ball yet it never even snowed & got shut out because of it.
Posted on 9/8/16 at 10:09 pm to BigBrod81
quote:
I don't think play action is ever a problem when you have a running back like Leonard Fournette. The problem is the lack of route options being given to the receivers. It's either short or deep, with nothing ever being thrown intermediate or over the middle. They don't even attack certain parts of the field which allows defenses to completely disregard certain zones because they know it would be threatened.
This causes two things to occur. One, it allows opposing corners to play our receivers really close because those corners know that they only have a 2-3 routes the receivers will run. It's why our receivers get no big separation. It makes for tight windows to throw to. You can tell Harris is being taught to throw to Dupre high, where only Malachi can get it in tight coverage but too often he throws too high. He's being asked to make perfect NFL throws on a regular basis. That's bullshite.
Secondly, since the middle of field isn't being attacked, it allows opposing DCs to have their ILBs & safeties to take risk being aggressive attacking the A & B gaps whether it's run or pass. We saw this over & over again against Wisconsin. It's also the same philosophy we saw Alabama, Ole Miss & Arkansas use against the team last year. Until the offense begins to attack the area above the ILBs & in front of the safeties, defenses will continue to aggressively attack those gaps.
Our problem exactly...what arse down votes?????
Posted on 9/8/16 at 10:15 pm to BigBrod81
quote:
BigBrod81
Spot on!
I'll add that Harris has been robbed of any instinctual play because they have him on such a tight leash.
Posted on 9/8/16 at 10:16 pm to 7Tiger7
Wasnt Harris a project? I thought he only played a year or two in high school. I could be wrong on that, but if true, would explain some of the fundamental flaws.
Posted on 9/8/16 at 10:22 pm to Paluka
quote:
I'll add that Harris has been robbed of any instinctual play because they have him on such a tight leash
Sad but true. You can tell from the routes the receivers are asked to run, that there is a great fear of the QB throwing picks. You can tell from the indecisiveness from Harris at times that he has been drilled about not throwing costly interceptions. When you do that though, you make your QB tentative then when you need him to make a play in tight game, he presses ultimately throwing that costly interception because he is just trying to make a play for his team.
Posted on 9/8/16 at 10:36 pm to BigBrod81
9 of his pass plays were play action with his back completely to the defense.
Posted on 9/8/16 at 10:45 pm to caliegeaux
That is not many play action passes especially with a weapon like Fournette in the backfield. Are you seriously trying to say that play action to Fournette won't cause safeties & LBs to bite up towards the line of scrimmage allowing clearer throwing lanes for Harris?
Posted on 9/8/16 at 10:48 pm to BigBrod81
quote:
Both Harris & the receivers are being asked to work miracles instead them having an offensive game plan built around them to make their lives easier.
This is my only rebuttal. You build the team around LF7. Not around someone who struggled to learn the playbook. Harris deserves some blame. There's no way around it.
Posted on 9/9/16 at 12:27 am to CalTiger53
quote:
Many think LSU's offensive problems is related to QB development. I watched Texas, Fla State, and Alabama all with freshmen QBs and they all did well. You can not say they did well because they are well developed before the season started. Their decision making is mostly instinctive and they play with confidence. It seems to me Harris just doesn't have that needed moxie that allows him to carry the team.
Some kids are groomed to and show up with a high football IQ. I dont know what the Scott kid is like on the college level. But he has very high football IQ. He was groomed to play the position. When kids show up like that, OCs get to take the credit, but there is no way that Jimbo, Saban, nor Charlie Strong, have taught that much in such a short period of time. However, no way our coaches will trust a true frosh.
Posted on 9/9/16 at 12:29 am to caliegeaux
quote:
As one analyst broke it down Monday evening.
Those qb's you mentioned are put in a system that limits reads. Quick decisions or underneath stuff all while constantly facing the field.
Bull shite. you only have two WR to throw to. There isnt much of a read. if 1 isnt open you go to 2. if 2 isnt open you freaking run.
Posted on 9/9/16 at 12:33 am to luvlsufootball
quote:
Some kids are groomed to and show up with a high football IQ. I dont know what the Scott kid is like on the college level. But he has very high football IQ. He was groomed to play the position. When kids show up like that, OCs get to take the credit, but there is no way that Jimbo, Saban, nor Charlie Strong, have taught that much in such a short period of time. However, no way our coaches will trust a true frosh.
Excellent, I wish we could see Scott
Posted on 9/9/16 at 4:55 am to BigBrod81
No, I'm saying play action should be a part of our arsenal because we have fournette.
I was saying play action puts his back to the field, which is his weakness and saying that's why he struggles as opposed to the guys mentioned In the OP. That was my point. The OP states these other qb's having success. I simply mentioned his drop backs and play actions from cam's offense being his weakness.
In the past he's had success in the gun with fournette back there running out very modified version of the spread. We did it some this weekend as well, but each time wisky was penetrating our line with ease so it was a struggle even running that.
I was saying play action puts his back to the field, which is his weakness and saying that's why he struggles as opposed to the guys mentioned In the OP. That was my point. The OP states these other qb's having success. I simply mentioned his drop backs and play actions from cam's offense being his weakness.
In the past he's had success in the gun with fournette back there running out very modified version of the spread. We did it some this weekend as well, but each time wisky was penetrating our line with ease so it was a struggle even running that.
This post was edited on 9/9/16 at 5:13 am
Posted on 9/9/16 at 4:57 am to luvlsufootball
Go watch the video of all of Harris' throws. 10 plays of 3 wide receiver sets. Lots of 2 sets, but plenty of 3. It's the types of routes they're running.
This post was edited on 9/9/16 at 5:10 am
Posted on 9/9/16 at 5:15 am to CalTiger53
Do you guys not remember Harris against Miss St as a true freshman? Goes out there when we thought we couldn't win and goes 6/9 for 140 with 2 TDs 1 int, and even picks up a first down with a long run. Next game vs the cupcake he goes 11/14 178 yards 3 TDs 0 ints with another 36 yards and 2 TDs on 5 carries. Just like that you have a kid who played maybe 3/4 of a football game in total go 17/23 318 yards 5 TDs 1 int, 7 car 55 yards 2 TDs, as a true freshman.
Watch LSU vs cupcakes last year and tell me Harris still looks as free and dangerous as he did in those 3 quarters. Harris struggled at Auburn yes, but I think what would have been better is to let him make mistakes for what was already a lost season.
Look at Matt Stafford who started after a few games as a true freshman and finished with 52.7% passing and 7 TDs to 13 ints. Putrid performance that Richt let him play through.
Miles coached all free spirit right out of the kid. All he has now is his laser arm and tentative decision making. I promise you he would have been dangerous in a wide open spread offense.
Watch LSU vs cupcakes last year and tell me Harris still looks as free and dangerous as he did in those 3 quarters. Harris struggled at Auburn yes, but I think what would have been better is to let him make mistakes for what was already a lost season.
Look at Matt Stafford who started after a few games as a true freshman and finished with 52.7% passing and 7 TDs to 13 ints. Putrid performance that Richt let him play through.
Miles coached all free spirit right out of the kid. All he has now is his laser arm and tentative decision making. I promise you he would have been dangerous in a wide open spread offense.
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