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Message
re: Quarterback recruiting.........
Posted on 2/1/16 at 1:04 pm to justustm2
Posted on 2/1/16 at 1:04 pm to justustm2
quote:
BH had a 53.7 completion percentage this year and Flynn's senior year was only at 56%.
But, but, but, he won a national championship.
quote:
Just a small improvement would make him just as effective as one of the QB's you argue were perfect for our system.
149 277 2165 53.8 7.82 13 6
Is pretty close to:
202 359 2407 56.3 6.7 21 11
Ka-freeking-BOOM!
Glad your so excited, good to hear from folks who care. But I think you're also underestimating how effective MF was and other measurements of his value.
For example, LF had the box stacked against him CONSTANTLY this year because they knew BH could pretty much only go deep over the top or run it himself, wo that he's pretty much neutralized. Esp since we're only running routes with 2 guys in some circumstances.
With MF (and guys like Mett), he poses the threat of being able to hit guys on all levels of the field w the pass. Long bombs, intermediate routes, and short slants/ screens, etc. This makes spreading the field and running play action (on both long and intermediate routes) easier.
1
Posted on 2/1/16 at 1:32 pm to mwade91383
quote:
Glad your so excited, good to hear from folks who care. But I think you're also underestimating how effective MF was and other measurements of his value.
For example, LF had the box stacked against him CONSTANTLY this year because they knew BH could pretty much only go deep over the top or run it himself, wo that he's pretty much neutralized. Esp since we're only running routes with 2 guys in some circumstances.
With MF (and guys like Mett), he poses the threat of being able to hit guys on all levels of the field w the pass. Long bombs, intermediate routes, and short slants/ screens, etc. This makes spreading the field and running play action (on both long and intermediate routes) easier.
You keep trying to make an argument that MF was dramatically better than BH but the numbers just don't support that (He was better but really not by much-3% better completion percentage and 1% more TD's per attempt). MF actually had pretty similar run support to BH. Both rushing offenses ran for about 3000 yards and 35 tds. I don't understand why you have such trouble imagining BH improving his accuracy by 3% points and his td percentage 1% and being as effective as MF. Furthermore, MF had one advantage over Mett as he was a threat to run with his legs just like Harris (Harris is arguably better on a play per play average).
Posted on 2/1/16 at 2:22 pm to mwade91383
Man, I don't want to sound mean, but almost everything you wrote is wrong. There's too much to criticize all of it, but just a sample:
1)
No. as you point out later in your thread, we're basing it on the QBs who beat Bama or almost beat Bama. This includes AJ last year, who hurt Bama badly by running from the pocket. Also the very last game in which the Clemson QB threw a scare into them.
2)
Are you serious?! I was at the 2007 BCS championship gam, and we were hitting Ohio State from every angle. One time we put like four receivers to one side of the field and hit the tight end for a TD on a post. Oh, we've changed all right.
3)
Really? Mett couldn't do all of that and yet the offense took off just fine.
1)
quote:
One poster suggested that the way to beat bama is with guys that can extend plays with their legs. My counter was 1, we're 0-5, and 2, are we basing this off Jordan Jefferson's performances in 2010 & 11?
No. as you point out later in your thread, we're basing it on the QBs who beat Bama or almost beat Bama. This includes AJ last year, who hurt Bama badly by running from the pocket. Also the very last game in which the Clemson QB threw a scare into them.
2)
quote:
My view, look at the last 10 years of the qb position at LSU. I mean who are we kidding? Our offensive philosophy hasn't really changed in that timeframe
Are you serious?! I was at the 2007 BCS championship gam, and we were hitting Ohio State from every angle. One time we put like four receivers to one side of the field and hit the tight end for a TD on a post. Oh, we've changed all right.
3)
quote:
It's unrealistic to think we're going to get/develop a Deshaun Watson/Jameis Winston/Marcus Mariota (who can actually do everything) in BR consistently. Which is what it would take for LSUs offense in its current philosophy/personnel to take off.
Really? Mett couldn't do all of that and yet the offense took off just fine.
Posted on 2/1/16 at 2:52 pm to glaucon
quote:
You keep trying to make an argument that MF was dramatically better than BH but the numbers just don't support that (He was better but really not by much-3% better completion percentage and 1% more TD's per attempt). MF actually had pretty similar run support to BH. Both rushing offenses ran for about 3000 yards and 35 tds. I don't understand why you have such trouble imagining BH improving his accuracy by 3% points and his td percentage 1% and being as effective as MF. Furthermore, MF had one advantage over Mett as he was a threat to run with his legs just like Harris (Harris is arguably better on a play per play average).
The argument I was actually trying to make was pocket passers are better than dual threat guys in our offensive system. MF is an instance that some are gravitating to as the end all be all rebuttal. Maybe his play calling was the difference? Somebody mentioned that the offense looked different that year, Jimbo does know how to run an offense.
But since we all know the predictable vanilla offense CLM runs today, which isn't necessarily catered to BH, how do we move forward?
LSU makes a point of going out and getting qbs who can make plays with their legs. It's almost irrefutable at this point. I wish they'd apply that same emphasis on guys that are accurate, which lends itself more to the PP mold. In my mind it's easily the most important attribute for me as a qb. It's certainly that case in the NFL, which I know is different, but still.
I don't give a shite about guys with a "big arm", or 4.5 speed, or over 6'2, they're a dime a dozen for programs like LSU. Anybody can throw it a mile, be relatively quick straight line, and be tall. None of it means a thing if he can't fit in the window or hit him in stride.
And when we play Les Miles offense which is predictable 1st down run up the middle, 2nd down run up the middle, it's imperative that we convert on 3rd down with an accurate throw.
The other thing about DT who are perceived run threats, it usually doesn't take anyone out of the box. Although if there was a real Xs and Os guy who challenged this statement, I'd welcome it. At least my understanding is that usually it means a spy which keeps him close to the line and eyes forward.
It's important because at the end of the day were going to win titles with a monster OL plowing the way for LF/Guice and co and with a suffocating defense. When we do need to make the throws why not recruit kids who specialize in doing that first and foremost?
Posted on 2/1/16 at 3:05 pm to Penrod
quote:
Man, I don't want to sound mean,
I welcome it, my feelings aren't made of glass. Hope yours aren't either, plenty wrong with your logic as well.
quote:
No. as you point out later in your thread, we're basing it on the QBs who beat Bama or almost beat Bama. This includes AJ last year, who hurt Bama badly by running from the pocket. Also the very last game in which the Clemson QB threw a scare into them.
I'm not sure anyone is talking about or interested in "almost" or "scares".
quote:
Are you serious?! I was at the 2007 BCS championship gam, and we were hitting Ohio State from every angle. One time we put like four receivers to one side of the field and hit the tight end for a TD on a post. Oh, we've changed all right.
I addressed this is well, Jimbo did a good job. But we were still a power running team utilizing TEs in blocking (and throwing) a bunch. If anything we're similar, just a hell of a lot blander. BH would probably flourish with more 3 or 4 man out wide. But since we know CLM doesn't like to do that, let's stop recruiting kids who would do well with that.
quote:
Really? Mett couldn't do all of that and yet the offense took off just fine.
Again, I addressed that as well later, gotta keep reading. I'm advocating for guys like Mett, I don't know how you missed that. Jameis/Watson are dual threat guys who can truly be phenomenal passers and great runners. They're rare, like super rare. Why are we convinced we can get guys like that to run our offense every year? Or hell, even just once?
Give me the guy who's primarily a thrower and most likely more accurate over a comparable recruit who's a runner and thrower. While the DT guy is versatile, I want accuracy when it matters, above everything else.
Posted on 2/1/16 at 3:07 pm to Penrod
quote:
It's unrealistic to think we're going to get/develop a Deshaun Watson/Jameis Winston/Marcus Mariota (who can actually do everything) in BR consistently. Which is what it would take for LSUs offense in its current philosophy/personnel to take off.
Really? Mett couldn't do all of that and yet the offense took off just fine.
What I mean is, ZM didn't run options/reads/boot legs etc. because let's face it, he's slower than my grandma. But we knew that and adjusted the play calling accordingly to what he's good at. We're unable/unwilling to do that for JJ/Jennings/BH to date to a point that they can win games for us when they need to.
Posted on 2/1/16 at 3:25 pm to mwade91383
quote::smh:
MF is an instance that some are gravitating to as the end all be all rebuttal. Maybe his play calling was the difference? Somebody mentioned that the offense looked different that year, Jimbo does know how to run an offense.
Certainly, Jimbo made all of the difference in 2007.
:smh:
Posted on 2/1/16 at 3:37 pm to Salviati
quote:
MF is an instance that some are gravitating to as the end all be all rebuttal. Maybe his play calling was the difference? Somebody mentioned that the offense looked different that year, Jimbo does know how to run an offense.
:smh:
Certainly, Jimbo made all of the difference in 2007.
:smh:
And unless he walks through that door tomorrow, how do we move forward with qb recruiting w CLM and Cam running the offense? I don't have any reason to think CLM or Cam can oversee/develop a DT quarterback that's good enough for us to complete our goals EXCEPT for the fact that BH will be in year 3 in the system. Another year of confidence, experience, strength, etc. does have value. Will it be enough to turn the corner? I'm not confident.
Posted on 2/1/16 at 3:59 pm to mwade91383
I'm so fricking tired of this website debating QBs... Everybody's right, and everybody's wrong, I just want it to end
Posted on 2/1/16 at 4:13 pm to Mr. Hangover
quote:
I'm so f****** tired of this website debating QBs... Everybody's right, and everybody's wrong, I just want it to end
Lol, its the offseason. What'd you expect??? If we win everything takes care of itself. It doesn't matter who's under center, everyone will shut up and be happy about it, myself included.
This post was edited on 2/1/16 at 4:14 pm
Posted on 2/1/16 at 4:37 pm to mwade91383
You're too naive if you think that this isn't beat into the ground year-round, not just during the season
Posted on 2/1/16 at 5:21 pm to Mr. Hangover
You mean OFFseason. And if that's that bad log off. Come back when you get a grip.
And yes I know it's talked about as nauseum but it doesn't bother me, which is why I'm here.
And yes I know it's talked about as nauseum but it doesn't bother me, which is why I'm here.
Posted on 2/1/16 at 5:35 pm to mwade91383
Hi Everyone. I was the one who started the Qb thread. I actually meant no harm towards Scott or his family. I was just wondering and trying to get my fellow Tiger Nation's opinion. Believe me when I say, I bleed Purple and Gold. I can say with confidence that there isn't a bigger LSU fan in the State of Alabama. I'm not from here, I just live here. I love this website and the information it gives. I didn't take anything personal from anyone's comments but I can say that, "It will be a COLD day in hell and I'm ice skating with the Devil", before I root for Bama or Auburn. Sincerely, A die Hard LSU fan.
This post was edited on 2/1/16 at 5:37 pm
Posted on 2/1/16 at 7:23 pm to mwade91383
quote:
One poster suggested that the way to beat bama is with guys that can extend plays with their legs. My counter was 1, we're 0-5, and 2, are we basing this off Jordan Jefferson's performances in 2010 & 11? Seems like forever ago and really just something to cling to.
No they are basing this off the fact that the last 4 years Bama has only lost to mobile QBs in spread offenses. Johnny Manziel once, Nick Marshall once, Trevor Knight once, Bo Wallace once, Cardele Jones once, Chad Kelly once,
For the Jordan Jefferson thing, he beat them in 2010 and 2011. In all likelihood he would have done so in 2009 had he not been speared in the chest and all other types of illegal shite that wasn't even penalized. That knocked him out of that game in the 3rd quarter, plus several other things that happened in that game (Peterson, refs, Charles Scott) kept LSU from winning.
quote:
Somebody else suggested that OSU, Atm, and OM who all beat bama didn't have a PP type. OSU and Atm don't run a pro style attack of offense like we do, and atm has been getting the breaks beaten off them ever since that one bama game
I think the problem has been the pro style offense that we can't seem to get to work right passing the ball unless we have two near future (that future was this year) pro bowl WRs in their 3rd year playing at LSU and a redshirt JUCO transfer passer in his 5th year in college and 3rd year at LSU.
Bama struggled both games vs Manziel while he lit them up like a Christmas tree through the air and on the ground. They haven't had a dual threat like that since. Nick Marshall also did his thing vs Bama through the air and ground. If Clemson's defense didn't decide to give up big plays like they were candy late in the game, Watson's masterful performance would have been enough to win the title.
Let's run a spread and utilize the close by recruiting grounds chock full of spread and option QBs in Texas and Louisiana. For example, Texas Tech had Mahomes and Baker Mayfield who were barely recruited by anybody else (Mayfield was a walk on), in addition to Davis Webb (a 6'5 230 lb strong armed QB that played spread his entire life). Dak Prescott is from Louisiana and we have two top dual threats in the 2017 class in Louisiana.
Why fight against the current and constantly lose to Bama when the opposite offense is the one that keeps beating them? Why struggle with first year starting QBs in a difficult pro style offense when we could light it up with a spread every year with our offensive talent? You can still have a power run game from the spread as evidenced. Also your defense doesn't dissappear because you score more points, that's nonsense.
quote:
And calling Chad Kelly a dual threat or mobile qb I think is a stretch
Are you serious??? Kelly was the #5 rated dual threat coming out of high school. He rushed for 2100 yards and 29 TDs in his two high school years he started, averaging over 10 yards per carry. In his 5 games played at Clemson as a 3rd stringer, he had 16 car for 117 yards (7.31 ypc) and 1 TD. In JUCO at EMCC he ran for 446 yards and 4 TDs. In his first and only year starting in the SEC he ran for 500 yards and 10 TDs averaging 4.67 ypc (that's a better ypc average than the leading RBs and QBs for Tennessee, Auburn, Florida, Vandy, USCe, Mizzu, and Miss St). He had the 9th best rushing average in the SEC for rushers with at least 100 carries and tied for 8th in rushing TDs in the SEC.
Chad Kelly is the DEFINITION of dual threat QB
quote:
I think those instances are exceptions, not rules.
For the past 4 years the rules have been
Dual threat QB
Spread offense
Does that mean they'll win every time? No. What it does mean, is that this is what Bama is most susceptible to. The quicker we stop being stupid f**king idiots and finally cater our offense to the QBs we recruit, to the crop of QBs around us in high school, and the type of offense that actually challenges Bama, the sooner we'll be to beating Bama.
They've said they plan to do something to be more spread, but we'll have to wait and see.
Posted on 2/1/16 at 7:42 pm to glaucon
quote:
Given we are talking about college qb's, it would actually be surprising if we didn't see any improvement. What sport have you been watching?
Well he didn't say any improvement, he said that kind of leap. The leap Mett made (with the help of the gigantic leaps that both Beckham and Landry made), is abnormally high. Brandon Allen and Mett are the only two recent QBs I've seen make that much of a one year leap in the SEC after starting the entire prior year.
Mett's ypa and TD ratio sky rocketed. In 2013 he had over 450 more passing yards in almost 60 less passing attempts. He increased his cmp% by 6% and his TD rate went from one every 29.33 passes, to one every 13.45 passes. I mean he more than doubled it.
Mett's QB rating went from 69th in the country to 4th in one year. That is insane!
Posted on 2/8/16 at 12:47 pm to glaucon
quote:
You keep trying to make an argument that MF was dramatically better than BH but the numbers just don't support that (He was better but really not by much-3% better completion percentage and 1% more TD's per attempt). MF actually had pretty similar run support to BH. Both rushing offenses ran for about 3000 yards and 35 tds. I don't understand why you have such trouble imagining BH improving his accuracy by 3% points and his td percentage 1% and being as effective as MF. Furthermore, MF had one advantage over Mett as he was a threat to run with his legs just like Harris (Harris is arguably better on a play per play average).
It's all in his mind. There are some who actually claim Flynn was a better QB than Jamarcus at LSU because his team won a notional championship. That despite the fact they lost 2 games, as did JR's teams whose two loses were to much higher ranked teams (Fla & Aub) on the road.
Comparing stats between Flynn and Harris should take into account Flynn was a 5th year senior versus Harris being a true sophomore. As a general rule, Sophs improve once they becomes seniors, especially 5th year seniors. However, in some minds Harris is not capable of improving.
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