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Started By
Message
How long should breakers last?
Posted on 1/16/23 at 5:37 pm
Posted on 1/16/23 at 5:37 pm
Our home is 4 years old. Over the last 6 months, I’ve had to replace 3 arc fault breakers. They run about $75 each. I have a Cutler Hammer panel and it uses Eaton breakers.
My wife is concerned we have some electrical problems, but if the breaker trips, then it’s doing it’s job.
Should I chalk this up to “they don’t make things like they use to” or seek a professional?
My wife is concerned we have some electrical problems, but if the breaker trips, then it’s doing it’s job.
Should I chalk this up to “they don’t make things like they use to” or seek a professional?
5
Posted on 1/16/23 at 6:16 pm to drfeelgood
Arc fault is more moving pieces than traditional and more wear and tear.
Is it the same 3 or 3 fifteenth ones?
Is it the same 3 or 3 fifteenth ones?
Posted on 1/16/23 at 6:22 pm to TaderSalad
It’s different ones. One controlled my daughters room, one that controlled the back wall of the kitchen, and the latest one controlled the smoke detectors. they all went out at different times. When they start going out, they typically trip every few days and gradually get to multiple times a day.
Is it possible to switch to a ground fault breaker? They’re cheaper than the arc faults.
Is it possible to switch to a ground fault breaker? They’re cheaper than the arc faults.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 6:37 pm to drfeelgood
quote:
Is it possible to switch to a ground fault breaker? They’re cheaper than the arc faults.
Per code or not?
Lots of people get tired of AFCI and simply swap them to normal breakers. But, per code they are required in living spaces.
I’m not sure you have them on “back wall of kitchen” or on “smoke detectors”. Not sure they’re required there, but I’ll defer to actual electricians.
I have them for all my bedrooms and living room, but not other circuits.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 6:54 pm to drfeelgood
Arcfault breakers suck. Especially, the ones that were first available which may very well be what's in your house.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 6:56 pm to LSUtigerME
NEC 2020 just got adopted by a lot of places.
Pretty much everything is arcfault or combo breakers. I'll have to look, but the list of areas that can use normal breakers is slim to none.
Pretty much everything is arcfault or combo breakers. I'll have to look, but the list of areas that can use normal breakers is slim to none.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 10:16 pm to drfeelgood
Not that is has anything to do with your situation, but you'd be surprised to find out every breaker, receptacle, and switch in your house could be tightened a quarter of a turn minimum.
Posted on 1/17/23 at 4:57 am to kengel2
quote:
Arcfault breakers suck. Especially, the ones that were first available which may very well be what's in your house.
He said his house is 4 years old, AFCI breakers have been NEC code in bedrooms for over 20 years.
Posted on 1/17/23 at 5:38 am to Obtuse1
*Depending on the ahj.
They were only required around here around 5 or 6 years ago.
They were only required around here around 5 or 6 years ago.
Posted on 1/17/23 at 9:35 am to Obtuse1
quote:
AFCI breakers have been NEC code in bedrooms for over 20 years.
Correct, 2002 was when that became effective.
But the requirement under the law would only have been if your state or local agency adopted the full 1999 or later NEC code. Those codes are simply recommendations and while they are usually adopted fairly quickly, some jurisdictions drag their feet or even list exceptions to certain parts of the code.
Bureaucracy at its finest.
Here is a list from 2017, I am uncertain now but there were 8 states that had not implemented the Arc Flash component at that time. Louisiana didn't until 2011.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 9:50 am to drfeelgood
Try MI Eaton and there has been a recall on breakers, Lots of people in our hood have contacted them and gotten 6-8 free in the mail. Its on my to do list as I have had 4 go faulty over the 5 years we have lived here. Make sure you contact the US part of Eaton and not the Africa one as someone noted in our hood FB page.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 12:21 pm to drfeelgood
quote:
Our home is 4 years old. Over the last 6 months, I’ve had to replace 3 arc fault breakers. They run about $75 each. I have a Cutler Hammer panel and it uses Eaton breakers.
My wife is concerned we have some electrical problems, but if the breaker trips, then it’s doing it’s job.
Should I chalk this up to “they don’t make things like they use to” or seek a professional?
Arc fault breakers are designed to fail and will do so in 3-5 years almost 100% of the time. They ought to be outlawed and the AHJs should prevent their use in their jurisdiction....they are garbage and the ONLY thing positive to come from them is Siemens was able to get in on the ground floor of the most recent debacle in the NEC when they missed out on the GFI windfall back in the day. Thats a fact....there are reams of paper and articles written on the subject. They have not prevented a single fire or injury that can be documented and the number of such incidents that they could prevent, at best, is minimal. What ain't minimal is the number of service calls consumers are faced with....very expensive service calls. They are a load of BS that the unexpected public was saddled with for no reason other than Siemens missed out on the initial economic windfall that was GFIs.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 12:30 pm to TaderSalad
quote:
Arc fault is more moving pieces than traditional and more wear and tear.
Is it the same 3 or 3 fifteenth ones?
No breaker should have any moving parts other than the handle which is used to open the circuit. They do not move UNLESS there is a an overcurrent situation or, in the case of arc fault, if there is a "bad" arc LOL. There is an arc every time any electrical device is connected to a circuit...including every time a light switch is turned on. The AFCI is supposed to be able to distinguish between these "good" arcs and "bad" arcs which the industry has a hard time defining beause they do not actually exist. They are GARBAGE and everyone who has them in their home is going to have problems with them sooner or later. The technology is bad to begin with but the disease they are supposed to address simply does not exist on any kind of scale in the United States or any developed country....they are a fix looking for a problem that came about because a major manufacturer missed out on a similar device years ago and has been looking for a way to correct that ever since. They are a windfall for electrical contractors because they require service calls which are almost unheard of in the electrical industry when compared to plumbing or HVAC. The NEC is written by contractors, engineers who work for contractors, and manufacturers who sell electrical products like AFCI breakers. They have a vested interest in coming up with all manner of snake oil like AFCI breakers and as long as the public allows it who can blame them.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 12:37 pm to LSUtigerME
quote:
Per code or not?
Lots of people get tired of AFCI and simply swap them to normal breakers. But, per code they are required in living spaces.
I’m not sure you have them on “back wall of kitchen” or on “smoke detectors”. Not sure they’re required there, but I’ll defer to actual electricians.
I have them for all my bedrooms and living room, but not other circuits.
The fix for AFCI breakers is simple, but you will be hard pressed to find a legit electrician who will do it because on the extremely slim chance that it resulted in damage or injury they would be liable as a licensed professional. However, it is entirely possible for most competent homeowners to fix them themselves. The fix is simple...eliminate them altogether, keep the old ones so when you sell you will have them if the new buyer is dumb enough to want them and get on with life. That may or may not result in problems with insurance in the highly unlikely event that you experience an incident which an arc fault would have prevented (they are almost non existent). I would recommend not replacing them but that is the only guaranteed fix. I wouldn't do it but that is the only fix
Posted on 1/19/23 at 12:42 pm to AwgustaDawg
I had a dual function AFCI/GFCI breaker that would spark when the microwave was running. This was a dedicated 20 amp circuit to the microwave. I replaced the breaker with a normal 20 amp breaker and no issues.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 12:44 pm to mingoswamp
quote:
Not that is has anything to do with your situation, but you'd be surprised to find out every breaker, receptacle, and switch in your house could be tightened a quarter of a turn minimum.
Over torquing is actually a part of the problem with AFCIs. It used to be a common service to commcercial and industrial customers to scope their electrical systems and tighten loose connections. It wasn't long before the instances of burnt connections increased to a point where studies were initiated and it was discovered that loose connections were rarely the problem but broken and damaged conductors due to over tightening was usually the problem. Most manufacturers started using various torque limiting screws on connections at this time.
If a device is energized initially and stays energized the odds or it will always remain energized until someone does something that opens the circuit. The longer it remains energized the less likely it will change condition without some input from someone or something. If it does not stay energized initially the installer will fix it because they won't be paid otherwise, most likely. Any maintenance on those connections is, usually, a waste of effort and will do more harm than good. If it was installed properly the first time it needs nothing and if it worked initially it normally needs nothing. If it does it will be VERY obvious...the device will stop working.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 12:46 pm to Obtuse1
quote:
He said his house is 4 years old, AFCI breakers have been NEC code in bedrooms for over 20 years.
Most Jurisidictions have adapated the initial code requiring them in the last 5-10 years and even then they may or not have been enforcing them, especially on their local, favorite contractors.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 12:54 pm to Chasin The Tiger
quote:
I had a dual function AFCI/GFCI breaker that would spark when the microwave was running. This was a dedicated 20 amp circuit to the microwave. I replaced the breaker with a normal 20 amp breaker and no issues.
You may want to find a GFCI breaker but not a combo breaker because if it was the microwave over the stove there is a chance that it also feeds an outlet near the sink and that outlet certainly needs GFCI protection. If you were able to find a normal breaker relatively easy you can probably find a GFCI breaker. If there are no outlets on the circuit near the sink and you can't find one outside on that circuit or maybe in the garage you are probably fine with a regular breaker but if it was a combo during the inspection phase of construction it probably needs to be a GFCI. If you can't find a breaker you can install an outlet. GFCI nuisance trips are RARE (they weren't in the first several generations), AFCIs that do not constantly trip are not close to rare.
Posted on 1/19/23 at 1:02 pm to Chasin The Tiger
quote:
I had a dual function AFCI/GFCI breaker that would spark when the microwave was running. This was a dedicated 20 amp circuit to the microwave. I replaced the breaker with a normal 20 amp breaker and no issues.
I have done the same thing also but anyone thinking of doing this needs to consider the ramifications if the highly unlikely "bad" arc (something the industry cannot define) occurs and, again highly unlikely, causes damage or injures someone (almost a mathematical impossibility) they may find that their insurance carrier will not cover said damage or injury. I have tried and tried to find a case where this had happened and I can't find one BUT it is a common train of thought in the electrical industry. The problem would be that the carrier would have to prove that the policy holder knew the breaker had been swapped and that swapping the breaker lead to the damage or the injury. They would have a difficult time doing that but they wouldn't have a difficult time using it as an excuse not to pay for years while the policy holder is bankrupted or worse. I have done it but I would not do it for someone else and I fully understand that there is a very slim, insignificant chance that it could cause a problem.
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