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re: US Never Apologized or Admitted Shooting Down Iran Air Plane in 1988
Posted on 7/25/14 at 4:37 pm to Tigah in the ATL
Posted on 7/25/14 at 4:37 pm to Tigah in the ATL
What's done is done.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 5:11 pm to Lsut81
quote:
whereas its second hand in regards to MH17.
I'd argue against it being second hand. If I give you a gun and tell you to shoot at some people, and you take out more than I was hoping for or the wrong target, I'm going to jail in the American justice system. There is no "second hand" about it.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 5:14 pm to Tigah in the ATL
I still don't get why something that happened twenty somethng years ago is being brought up. It has nothing to do with what is going on now. To somehow imply that The US doesn't have the moral high ground to question Russias actions is ridiculous.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 5:16 pm to Tigah in the ATL
They gave out ribbons for finishing their tours.... Not like they handed out the Medal of Honor
Posted on 7/25/14 at 5:20 pm to Vegas Eddie
The Captain got the Legion of Merit and the Fire Control Officer got a Navy Commendation Medal. Those are significant awards for a frickup.
Posted on 7/25/14 at 5:39 pm to RollTide1987
In the spirit of fairness here are the different findings of what happened.
A subsequent US report by Rear Admiral William Fogarty, titled Formal Investigation into the Circumstances Surrounding the Downing of Iran Air Flight 655 on July 3, 1988,[8] noted that Captain Rogers received some faulty information that he used to make the decision to fire. Specifically, he was told the aircraft was identified as an Iranian Air Force F-14 Tomcat descending in an attack profile, and that it was identifying itself with secondary surveillance radar / IFF mode-II codes exclusively used by military aircraft. The investigation noted that Rogers was focused on the ongoing surface engagement and was only aware of the inbound aircraft for less than four minutes. It also pointed out that Rogers thought that he had increased burden to act since he was also assigned to protect the frigate USS Elmer Montgomery (FF-1082). The investigation also concluded that Rogers acted in a prudent manner based on the information available to him, and the short time frame involved. He also acted within the prescribed rules of engagement for USN warship captains in that situation.[8]
The USS Vincennes (CG-49) returns to San Diego, October 1988.
Other independent investigations into the incident have presented a different picture. John Barry and Roger Charles of Newsweek magazine claimed that Rogers was overeager for combat, that he started the fight with Iranian gunboats, and then followed them into Iranian territorial waters. Barry and Charles also accused the U.S. government of a cover-up.[2]
Some other sources lay some of the blame on the complexity of the technology and the great expense of the warship. An analysis of the events by the International Strategic Studies Association described the deployment of an AEGIS cruiser into that zone as irresponsible, and the Association thought that the great expense of his warship had played a major part in setting a low threshold for opening fire.[9]
In 2004, Marita Turpin and Niek du Plooy of the Centre for Logistics and Decision Support partially attributed the accident to an expectancy bias introduced by the Aegis Combat System and faulted the design and "unhelpful user interface" as contributing to the errors of judgment.[10]
Rogers speaking at a USS Vincennes welcome home ceremony.
Rogers was personally criticized for being overly aggressive by Commander David Carlson, commanding officer of the USS Sides, a second ship that was under the tactical control of Rogers at the time of the incident. Carlson claimed that the downing of Iran Air 655 marked the "horrifying climax to Capt. Rogers' aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago". He was referring to incidents on June 2, 1988, when he claimed that Rogers brought the Vincennes too close to an Iranian frigate that was searching a bulk carrier, that he launched a helicopter too close to Iranian small boats, and that he fired upon a number of small Iranian military boats instead of directing another, smaller warship to do so. In disagreeing with Rogers's decision – citing the high cost of the cruiser relative to that of the frigates attached to the group – Carlson posited, "Why do you want an AEGIS cruiser out there shooting up boats? It wasn't a smart thing to do."[11]
A subsequent US report by Rear Admiral William Fogarty, titled Formal Investigation into the Circumstances Surrounding the Downing of Iran Air Flight 655 on July 3, 1988,[8] noted that Captain Rogers received some faulty information that he used to make the decision to fire. Specifically, he was told the aircraft was identified as an Iranian Air Force F-14 Tomcat descending in an attack profile, and that it was identifying itself with secondary surveillance radar / IFF mode-II codes exclusively used by military aircraft. The investigation noted that Rogers was focused on the ongoing surface engagement and was only aware of the inbound aircraft for less than four minutes. It also pointed out that Rogers thought that he had increased burden to act since he was also assigned to protect the frigate USS Elmer Montgomery (FF-1082). The investigation also concluded that Rogers acted in a prudent manner based on the information available to him, and the short time frame involved. He also acted within the prescribed rules of engagement for USN warship captains in that situation.[8]
The USS Vincennes (CG-49) returns to San Diego, October 1988.
Other independent investigations into the incident have presented a different picture. John Barry and Roger Charles of Newsweek magazine claimed that Rogers was overeager for combat, that he started the fight with Iranian gunboats, and then followed them into Iranian territorial waters. Barry and Charles also accused the U.S. government of a cover-up.[2]
Some other sources lay some of the blame on the complexity of the technology and the great expense of the warship. An analysis of the events by the International Strategic Studies Association described the deployment of an AEGIS cruiser into that zone as irresponsible, and the Association thought that the great expense of his warship had played a major part in setting a low threshold for opening fire.[9]
In 2004, Marita Turpin and Niek du Plooy of the Centre for Logistics and Decision Support partially attributed the accident to an expectancy bias introduced by the Aegis Combat System and faulted the design and "unhelpful user interface" as contributing to the errors of judgment.[10]
Rogers speaking at a USS Vincennes welcome home ceremony.
Rogers was personally criticized for being overly aggressive by Commander David Carlson, commanding officer of the USS Sides, a second ship that was under the tactical control of Rogers at the time of the incident. Carlson claimed that the downing of Iran Air 655 marked the "horrifying climax to Capt. Rogers' aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago". He was referring to incidents on June 2, 1988, when he claimed that Rogers brought the Vincennes too close to an Iranian frigate that was searching a bulk carrier, that he launched a helicopter too close to Iranian small boats, and that he fired upon a number of small Iranian military boats instead of directing another, smaller warship to do so. In disagreeing with Rogers's decision – citing the high cost of the cruiser relative to that of the frigates attached to the group – Carlson posited, "Why do you want an AEGIS cruiser out there shooting up boats? It wasn't a smart thing to do."[11]
Posted on 7/25/14 at 5:56 pm to fattybob
quote:
Erin Burnett who rarely questions official US policy
Do what? She's a typical MSM lib who gets all her little talking points/thoughts from Think Progress or The Daily Kos.
Now if you mean that she rarely questions this administration and is a defacto spokesperson for this President,I'd have to agree with ya.
This post was edited on 7/25/14 at 10:04 pm
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