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Started By
Message
re: Conservative Think Tank: Trump ‘Obstructed Justice’ When He Fired Comey
Posted on 10/11/17 at 7:53 am to tigerinDC09
Posted on 10/11/17 at 7:53 am to tigerinDC09
quote:
A new report from the nation’s leading center-right think tank
Does not equal:
quote:
Conservative Think Tank
Also:
[quote]LINK ]
This post was edited on 10/11/17 at 7:55 am
Posted on 10/11/17 at 7:53 am to BBONDS25
Here is the case they reference:
quote:
Similarly, in U.S. v. Lustyik, a defendant was found guilty of obstructing justice under Sections 1503 and 1505 where he “used his status as an FBI agent” to try to stop a government investigation into his friend and business partner, Michael Taylor, by, among other things, “attempting to establish Taylor as a confidential source [and] contact[ing] multiple individuals connected with the [] investigation to dissuade them from indicting Taylor.”192
U.S. v. Lustyik is also instructive. There, an FBI agent was found guilty of obstruction of justice under Sections 1503 and 1505 where he “used his status as an FBI agent” to try to “derail” a government investigation.231
Posted on 10/11/17 at 7:54 am to tigerinDC09
So far I see that AUstar, BBonds, and Centinel are the only ones in this thread trying to offer counterpoints and have a reasonable discussion.
Actually come to think of it that's better than a lot of threads that go against the grain.
Actually come to think of it that's better than a lot of threads that go against the grain.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 7:57 am to BBONDS25
BBonds 25, I found a link about your theory:
LINK
quote:
The case law on obstruction of FBI investigations is sparse in part because the Bureau can charge crimes that are much easier to prove—§ 1001 for making false statements, for instance—and because key modalities of obstruction of FBI investigation are individually criminalized. It is, for example, a crime to tamper with witnesses, a crime to bribe a law enforcement officer, and a crime to destroy evidence.
So is Trump off the hook on obstruction? Hardly. For one thing, it’s not entirely clear that Higgins is correct. At least some scholars doubt that the 36-year-old district court case, whose reasoning seems counter to a number of circuit court decisions defining “proceeding,” is the best reading of the law.
LINK
Posted on 10/11/17 at 7:57 am to Navytiger74
quote:
So far I see that AUstar, BBonds, and Centinel are the only ones in this thread trying to offer counterpoints and have a reasonable discussion.
Because the source (both the poster and article) are laughably biased. What is the point in arguing with someone who is intellectually dishonest at best and a liar at worst?
Posted on 10/11/17 at 7:59 am to tigerinDC09
US attorney manual
The US attorney manual cites United States v Higgins, 511 F. Supp. 453 and United States v Scaratow, 137 F. Supp. 620 when it states:
Now...in 118 pages, the fine conservative folks at Brookings failed to even address this issue. That the precedent and even the US Attorney Manual States FBI investigations aren't proceeding under the code. Why do you think that is?
The US attorney manual cites United States v Higgins, 511 F. Supp. 453 and United States v Scaratow, 137 F. Supp. 620 when it states:
quote:
However, investigations by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) are not section 1505 proceedings.
Now...in 118 pages, the fine conservative folks at Brookings failed to even address this issue. That the precedent and even the US Attorney Manual States FBI investigations aren't proceeding under the code. Why do you think that is?
Posted on 10/11/17 at 7:59 am to Navytiger74
quote:
So far I see that AUstar, BBonds, and Centinel are the only ones in this thread trying to offer counterpoints and have a reasonable discussion.
Yeah, BBond's point is vaild and I appreciate him at least debating it on merit
Posted on 10/11/17 at 7:59 am to tigerinDC09
quote:I don't live in a bubble I live in reality.
I grew up in Louisiana and graduated LSU.
We both live in bubbles. I'm on here to step outside of mine, what do you do to get outside of yours?
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:00 am to BBONDS25
quote:You and I had this discussion a few weeks back and I don't remember being presented with anything conclusively saying that an FBI investigation didn't qualify as a 1505 proceeding. Apparently it's still pretty controversial.
Yet they skipped over the most basic issue. Whether an FBI investigation is a proceeding under the law. There is legal precedent out there hat addresses this. Do you want to guess why it was cited. Their 118 pages of facts are no different than any memorandum in support an advocate would file in any case. Yet you think it is airtight? Know how I know you have zero legal background?
But like a few weeks ago, that doesn't address the fact that there are concurrent congressional and grand jury investigations intimately tied to Trump campaign principals--including one (Flynn) whom Trump specifically tried to have heat taken off.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:01 am to tigerinDC09
quote:
Brookings
quote:
Conservative
quote:
Center right
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:01 am to tigerinDC09
Let me give you some precedents....
Fast and Furious - no prosecution
IRS targeting scandal - no prosecution
Lynch/Clinton tarmac meeting - no prosecution
Clinton Foundation receiving illegal contributions- no prosecution
Hillary Clinton “pay for play” - no prosecution
Benghazi cover up - no prosecution
Hillary email scandal - no prosecution
All of these cases have vastly more substantial evidence, including intent, to prosecute. They won’t and likely never will. The DC swamp is really showing its hand if it goes after Trump in this flimsy premise outlined in your “report,” especially considering all the above.
Fast and Furious - no prosecution
IRS targeting scandal - no prosecution
Lynch/Clinton tarmac meeting - no prosecution
Clinton Foundation receiving illegal contributions- no prosecution
Hillary Clinton “pay for play” - no prosecution
Benghazi cover up - no prosecution
Hillary email scandal - no prosecution
All of these cases have vastly more substantial evidence, including intent, to prosecute. They won’t and likely never will. The DC swamp is really showing its hand if it goes after Trump in this flimsy premise outlined in your “report,” especially considering all the above.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:02 am to The Pirate King
quote:What's wrong with biased. Biased doesn't mean wrong. It doesn't mean right, either. It doesn't address the merits of the argument. I'm biased, like you and everyone else, but I can promise you I generally post in good faith unless I'm obviously trolling or having fun.
Because the source (both the poster and article) are laughably biased.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:03 am to tigerinDC09
quote:
BBonds 25, I found a link about your theory:
It's not my theory. It is directs from the US attorney manual which cites two cases as to why it made that determination. You may find scholars who disagree with the interpretation. However, there is at least a question to be argued....but in reality, until Trump...nobody ever questioned he well-established precedent.
Airtight you say?
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:03 am to BBONDS25
quote:
Now...in 118 pages, the fine conservative folks at Brookings failed to even address this issue. That the precedent and even the US Attorney Manual States FBI investigations aren't proceeding under the code. Why do you think that is?
Also, is Flynn's investigation ONLY an FBI investigation?
Didn't they have him on FARA? Is that an FBI investigation or a "government investigation" as laid out in the other codes?
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:05 am to tigerinDC09
Executive power and privilege beoch!
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:05 am to tigerinDC09
quote:That's a big nope. It's a grand jury investigation as well.
Also, is Flynn's investigation ONLY an FBI investigation?
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:05 am to tigerinDC09
quote:
that President Donald Trump likely obstructed justice
Well there's that definitive word again being used as proof of something.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:06 am to Navytiger74
quote:
But like a few weeks ago, that doesn't address the fact that there are concurrent congressional and grand jury investigations intimately tied to Trump campaign principals--including one (Flynn) whom Trump specifically tried to have heat taken off.
Navytiger74... Great minds think alike
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:06 am to tigerinDC09
Completely irrelevant. Lustyik is not the POTUS.
Bottom line: The argument is going to boil down to whether the POTUS truly is the head of the executive branch (he is) and whether he is allowed to direct investigations as he sees fit. The constitution doesn't prevent him from doing whatever he wants with the FBI -- and indeed the constitution explicitly makes him the dictator of the executive branch. The FBI wasn't around in the 1780's, but the constitution did make provisions for administrative agencies (which the FBI is) The POTUS is the head honcho of all executive branch agencies.
All of the technical arguments as to whether this or that is or isn't obstruction is irrelevant to the POTUS. He is not Joe Sixpack.
Bottom line: The argument is going to boil down to whether the POTUS truly is the head of the executive branch (he is) and whether he is allowed to direct investigations as he sees fit. The constitution doesn't prevent him from doing whatever he wants with the FBI -- and indeed the constitution explicitly makes him the dictator of the executive branch. The FBI wasn't around in the 1780's, but the constitution did make provisions for administrative agencies (which the FBI is) The POTUS is the head honcho of all executive branch agencies.
All of the technical arguments as to whether this or that is or isn't obstruction is irrelevant to the POTUS. He is not Joe Sixpack.
Posted on 10/11/17 at 8:06 am to tigerinDC09
The fact is that you TRIED to present this as a conservative think tank to bolster the argument for the impeachment of Trump.
You started the whole dialogue with a lie.
You started the whole dialogue with a lie.
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