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re: Ruby Ridge? Did the US Government Do the Right Thing?
Posted on 4/28/17 at 5:01 am to PurpleandGold Motown
Posted on 4/28/17 at 5:01 am to PurpleandGold Motown
"Crazy" white people make a very politically safe target for the federal government.
Posted on 4/28/17 at 5:23 am to PurpleandGold Motown
quote:Not even close.
Ruby Ridge? Did the US Government Do the Right Thing?
Posted on 4/28/17 at 5:36 am to PurpleandGold Motown
The feds were wrong from the beginning. First they set Randy up. Secondly they were using the woods around Randy's house as a training ground. Thirdly they shot a 14 year old kid's dog.
Posted on 4/28/17 at 6:11 am to PurpleandGold Motown
quote:
I think the feds were backed into a corner
Wasn't it the other way around.The Feds went to his land and home in Idaho.Killed his dog,his Son,and his Wife,I believe.
A Federal Court ruled against the Feds.
This post was edited on 4/28/17 at 6:13 am
Posted on 4/28/17 at 6:25 am to PurpleandGold Motown
Sniper should've been prosecuted for manslaughter.
They shot his son in the back and killed him after he threw down his rifle and ran back to the house.
They shot his son in the back and killed him after he threw down his rifle and ran back to the house.
This post was edited on 4/28/17 at 6:28 am
Posted on 4/28/17 at 6:35 am to PurpleandGold Motown
Shooting a mother holding an infant while looking at her dead son that you'd just shot? I'm going to go with no.
Posted on 4/28/17 at 6:38 am to montanagator
You are the king of apples and oranges.
Posted on 4/28/17 at 6:48 am to PurpleandGold Motown
No. It was straight up premeditated murder.
Posted on 4/28/17 at 6:50 am to montanagator
quote:
It's kind of amazing how many of the same people who are pretty damn quick to defend police violence now are super critical of police violence back in the 90s.
A big part of it is the idiotic reason that law enforcement was involved in the first place.
A stupid inconsequential gun regulation that should never exist in the first place.
When cops are sticking with the basics of countering murder, rape, theft and beatings, people don't mind them so much.
But spending millions of dollars and getting kids killed because a shotgun barrel was a ¼ inch too short is ridiculous.
What's next? raiding my house because I have incandescent light bulbs or my toilet tank holds more than 1.5 gallons?
This post was edited on 4/28/17 at 6:54 am
Posted on 4/28/17 at 7:06 am to PurpleandGold Motown
quote:
One of those is Ruby Ridge.
What forced their hand on escalating the siege?
quote:
Looking at this event, I can't decide who was right.
Weaver is no saint. These folks rarely are (see the Bundys). But, he was singled out, targeted, then made an example of (under a Republican administration, I will be quick to point out, just as Waco was initiated under that same president.)
And the consequences are horrific when you think back to how things went down. It was the "preview" for Waco. As far as Waco, again, Koresh was no saint either, but the feds hamfisted (IMHO) efforts resulted in a horrific loss of life - their own and innocent children. And so easily avoidable if rational heads had prevailed.
This post was edited on 4/28/17 at 7:07 am
Posted on 4/28/17 at 7:07 am to PurpleandGold Motown
Ruby Ridge was wrong in so many ways.
Waco was surreal wrong...
Waco was surreal wrong...
Posted on 4/28/17 at 7:12 am to PurpleandGold Motown
quote:
Did the US Government Do the Right Thing?
No, they screwed up.
Weaver failed to appear, so the Marshals had a right to go get him and bring him in. However, the response was so over the top heavy handed. Very wrong.
Posted on 4/28/17 at 7:38 am to PurpleandGold Motown
Are you seriously asking if the Feds did the right thing shooting a woman while she help her baby?
Or are you asking if it was the right thing when a 14 year old boy got shot and died?
Or are you asking if it was the right thing because this was done against white conservatives and not a black family?
All of this shite went down in the first couple of days if memory serves me right. Also, in the end Randy Weaver (who I have met when I lived in Iowa - he lives in a small town there) and I think everyone else ended up with acquittals on everything that happened except the original failure to appear.
No the government did not do the right thing.
Or are you asking if it was the right thing when a 14 year old boy got shot and died?
Or are you asking if it was the right thing because this was done against white conservatives and not a black family?
All of this shite went down in the first couple of days if memory serves me right. Also, in the end Randy Weaver (who I have met when I lived in Iowa - he lives in a small town there) and I think everyone else ended up with acquittals on everything that happened except the original failure to appear.
No the government did not do the right thing.
Posted on 4/28/17 at 7:56 am to scrooster
quote:
Feds, especially the sniper who killed Vicki Weaver, (he also worked the Wavo massacre), should be in jail.
This. The Feds went in there to kill them. There is no valid excuse for shooting an unarmed woman holding a child.
Posted on 4/28/17 at 7:58 am to PurpleandGold Motown
I think there's a general consensus that, operationally, it was a shitshow.
Posted on 4/28/17 at 8:09 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
(under a Republican administration, I will be quick to point out, just as Waco was initiated under that same president.)
Bzzzt. Wrong. Clinton/Reno both times.
Posted on 4/28/17 at 8:11 am to troyt37
quote:
Bzzzt. Wrong. Clinton/Reno both times.
How the frick you gonna blame Clinton/Reno (neither of whom I can stand, baw), for Ruby Ridge in August 1992?
Now, the actual siege and disaster of Waco was under Clinton/Reno - and they bear full responsibility despite "The buck never got here" - HOWEVER, the investigation and targeting of the Davidians because they were armed and religious began under H.W. as well.
Don't like it if you don't want to, but facts are facts.
This post was edited on 4/28/17 at 8:12 am
Posted on 4/28/17 at 8:12 am to troyt37
From Wikipedia.
Special ROE and sniper/observer deployment[edit]
Special rules of engagement (ROE) were approved by the FBI,[who?] for use on Ruby Ridge. According to the later RRTF report to the DOJ (1994), the Ruby Ridge ROE were as follows:
"If any adult in the area around the cabin is observed with a weapon after the surrender announcement had been made, deadly force could and should be used to neutralize the individual."[51]
"If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement deadly force can and should be employed if the shot could be taken without endangering any children."[51]
"If compromised by any dog[,] the dog can be taken out."[51]
"Any subjects other than Randy Weaver, Vicki Weaver, [and] Kevin Harris presenting threat of death or grievous bodily harm[,] FBI rules of deadly force apply. Deadly force can be utilized to prevent the death or grievous bodily injury to oneself or that of another." [From the sworn statement of FBI SAC Eugene Glenn].[51]
As noted in a footnote to the report in this crucial section,
The [ROE] was modified from "adult" to "adult male" [in ROE point 2] to exclude Vicki Weaver around 2:30 or 3:00 p.m. after consultation with [SAC Eugene] Glenn because Vicki Weaver was not seen at the site of Degan's slaying.[52]
The Ruby Ridge ROE had been drawn up on the basis of reports from the headquarters of the USMS and FBI, bolstered by unconfirmed news media accounts accepted by HQ that exaggerated the threat posed by the Weavers.[citation needed] These military-style rules varied from the FBI's standard deadly force policy. Standard deadly force policy of the FBI was: "Agents are not to use deadly force against any person except as necessary in self-defense or the defense of another, when they have reason to believe they or another are in danger of death or grievous bodily harm. Whenever feasible, verbal warning should be given before deadly force is applied."[53][better source needed] Under the Ruby Ridge ROE points 3 and 4, Vicki Weaver and third party women, the Weaver children, other third parties, and the Weaver dogs were subject to the standard deadly force policy and could only be fired upon in self-defense, that is, if they presented a danger of death or grievous bodily harm;[citation needed] however, under the Ruby Ridge ROE points 1 and 2, deadly force against the Weaver adults could and should be used without the justification of defense, and in the case of adult males, without any verbal warning.[citation needed]
The ROE were communicated to agents on site, including communication prior to deployment to HRT sniper/observers that had been brought to the site,[52] communications that included the change of "adult" to "adult male" to exclude Vicki Weaver.[52] Some deployed FBI agents, in particular the sniper/observers, would later describe the adopted ROE as a "green light" to "shoot on sight".[54]
Special ROE and sniper/observer deployment[edit]
Special rules of engagement (ROE) were approved by the FBI,[who?] for use on Ruby Ridge. According to the later RRTF report to the DOJ (1994), the Ruby Ridge ROE were as follows:
"If any adult in the area around the cabin is observed with a weapon after the surrender announcement had been made, deadly force could and should be used to neutralize the individual."[51]
"If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement deadly force can and should be employed if the shot could be taken without endangering any children."[51]
"If compromised by any dog[,] the dog can be taken out."[51]
"Any subjects other than Randy Weaver, Vicki Weaver, [and] Kevin Harris presenting threat of death or grievous bodily harm[,] FBI rules of deadly force apply. Deadly force can be utilized to prevent the death or grievous bodily injury to oneself or that of another." [From the sworn statement of FBI SAC Eugene Glenn].[51]
As noted in a footnote to the report in this crucial section,
The [ROE] was modified from "adult" to "adult male" [in ROE point 2] to exclude Vicki Weaver around 2:30 or 3:00 p.m. after consultation with [SAC Eugene] Glenn because Vicki Weaver was not seen at the site of Degan's slaying.[52]
The Ruby Ridge ROE had been drawn up on the basis of reports from the headquarters of the USMS and FBI, bolstered by unconfirmed news media accounts accepted by HQ that exaggerated the threat posed by the Weavers.[citation needed] These military-style rules varied from the FBI's standard deadly force policy. Standard deadly force policy of the FBI was: "Agents are not to use deadly force against any person except as necessary in self-defense or the defense of another, when they have reason to believe they or another are in danger of death or grievous bodily harm. Whenever feasible, verbal warning should be given before deadly force is applied."[53][better source needed] Under the Ruby Ridge ROE points 3 and 4, Vicki Weaver and third party women, the Weaver children, other third parties, and the Weaver dogs were subject to the standard deadly force policy and could only be fired upon in self-defense, that is, if they presented a danger of death or grievous bodily harm;[citation needed] however, under the Ruby Ridge ROE points 1 and 2, deadly force against the Weaver adults could and should be used without the justification of defense, and in the case of adult males, without any verbal warning.[citation needed]
The ROE were communicated to agents on site, including communication prior to deployment to HRT sniper/observers that had been brought to the site,[52] communications that included the change of "adult" to "adult male" to exclude Vicki Weaver.[52] Some deployed FBI agents, in particular the sniper/observers, would later describe the adopted ROE as a "green light" to "shoot on sight".[54]
Posted on 4/28/17 at 8:17 am to Ace Midnight
Yep, sorry. RR was Bush 1, Waco was Clinton Reno.
When the investigations started had nothing to do with the murders the government committed as the final act.
When the investigations started had nothing to do with the murders the government committed as the final act.
Posted on 4/28/17 at 8:21 am to troyt37
quote:
When the investigations started had nothing to do with the murders the government committed as the final act.
Well, it does, IMHO. This was at the height of the ATF's "jack booted thugs" era. The abuses and "take no prisoners" attitude began under H.W. Bush. In hindsight, clearly Ruby Ridge was going to lead to a Waco. The fact that the body count was higher (at Waco) does not let H.W. completely off the hook. I agree that Clinton and Reno are primarily to blame for what happened at Waco and the deaths there.
This post was edited on 4/28/17 at 8:23 am
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