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re: Baseball Hall of Fame Announcement Thread- Bagwell, Raines, Pudge Elected to HOF
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:44 am to ShaneTheLegLechler
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:44 am to ShaneTheLegLechler
First off, I'm thrilled Tim Raines got in. It was his last year on the ballot, and he is arguably the 2nd greatest leadoff hitter ever. He's the best percentage base stealer of all-time, and while he didn't have Gwynn's batting average, he got on base more and scored more runs. Poz had a great piece today that Raines long journey to the Hall is what makes it great: we spent a decade remembering a guy like Raines... other sports don't do that (I think he used Mike Gartner and Alex English as his other sports examples). Raines' whole candidacy was a love letter to baseball.
I'm disappointed Hoffman and Vlad didn't get in. A five-man class would alleviate the backlog of worthy candidates, especially since next year's batch is sort of great as well. Hoffman has the all-time saves record and while you can argue he didn't pitch enough innings or whatever, we've already broken the seal on relievers getting in the Hall. If we induct RHP, we induct the best regular season closer ever (Mo Rivera, of course, is a no-brainer, and I've argued he's the best postseason pitcher ever). Best closer ever is a pretty high bar.
Vlad's case isn't quite as good as Larry Walker's. Walker has a higher career WAR, WAR7, and JAWS. He has 30 more points of career OPS and essentially the same OPS+. He stole more bases and was a far better defensive player. But Walker ain't getting in until Vlad does, but I'll also make the case for Vlad on non-statistical grounds: he is the most fun/unique player of his era and I think he is THE most important Dominican player. There were Dominicans before him, but he was the guy who really represented the island, and was the totem. I think that counts for a lot. You don't walk off the island.
Moose, I've accepted, won't get in the Hall. But he easily could have won 300, but he retired right after a 20-win season because... well, he didn't need to chase milestones. He wasn't that kind of guy. It didn't matter to him. But he was top 5 in Cy Young voting 6 times, top 5 in ERA 7 times, top 5 in strikeouts 6 times, and won 7 Gold Gloves. Mussina requires one to appreciate consistent excellence, and frankly... we don't. It's a shame we don't, if it were easy, everyone would do it.
Clemens and Bonds are no brainers, but they've cleared 50%. Nearly every player to get to 50% eventually has been inducted. The tide is turning, and they will likely be inducted in a few years. Rodriguez and Selig's induction helps, as it removes a big stigma of the steroid era.
I'm disappointed Hoffman and Vlad didn't get in. A five-man class would alleviate the backlog of worthy candidates, especially since next year's batch is sort of great as well. Hoffman has the all-time saves record and while you can argue he didn't pitch enough innings or whatever, we've already broken the seal on relievers getting in the Hall. If we induct RHP, we induct the best regular season closer ever (Mo Rivera, of course, is a no-brainer, and I've argued he's the best postseason pitcher ever). Best closer ever is a pretty high bar.
Vlad's case isn't quite as good as Larry Walker's. Walker has a higher career WAR, WAR7, and JAWS. He has 30 more points of career OPS and essentially the same OPS+. He stole more bases and was a far better defensive player. But Walker ain't getting in until Vlad does, but I'll also make the case for Vlad on non-statistical grounds: he is the most fun/unique player of his era and I think he is THE most important Dominican player. There were Dominicans before him, but he was the guy who really represented the island, and was the totem. I think that counts for a lot. You don't walk off the island.
Moose, I've accepted, won't get in the Hall. But he easily could have won 300, but he retired right after a 20-win season because... well, he didn't need to chase milestones. He wasn't that kind of guy. It didn't matter to him. But he was top 5 in Cy Young voting 6 times, top 5 in ERA 7 times, top 5 in strikeouts 6 times, and won 7 Gold Gloves. Mussina requires one to appreciate consistent excellence, and frankly... we don't. It's a shame we don't, if it were easy, everyone would do it.
Clemens and Bonds are no brainers, but they've cleared 50%. Nearly every player to get to 50% eventually has been inducted. The tide is turning, and they will likely be inducted in a few years. Rodriguez and Selig's induction helps, as it removes a big stigma of the steroid era.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:53 am to Baloo
quote:
Vlad's case isn't quite as good as Larry Walker's. Walker has a higher career WAR, WAR7, and JAWS. He has 30 more points of career OPS and essentially the same OPS+. He stole more bases and was a far better defensive player. But Walker ain't getting in until Vlad does, but I'll also make the case for Vlad on non-statistical grounds: he is the most fun/unique player of his era and I think he is THE most important Dominican player. There were Dominicans before him, but he was the guy who really represented the island, and was the totem. I think that counts for a lot. You don't walk off the island.
Yeah, the lack of Larry Walker love puzzles me. He was a much better overall player than Edgar Martinez who got a lot more votes than him. Walker was a legitimate 5-tool player in his prime. He could run, hit for power and average, and his arm was awesome. People bring up the Colorado advantage but Walker had a 137 OPS+ in his last three years in Montreal and had a 134 OPS+ with St. Louis when he was in the tail end of his career. The guy would have put up great offensive numbers wherever he played.
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