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Watch this video, and tell me NBA superstars didn't have it easier in the '90's
Posted on 4/16/15 at 9:45 pm
Posted on 4/16/15 at 9:45 pm
Here is a video I came across, called "Michael Jordan 1997 Playoffs Highlights". You really only have to watch the first few minutes to get what I'm talking about. Read this post, and honestly watch for what I'm talking about so we can have an honest discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Jjl9_ZDY4
I don't think people really understand how the illegal defense rules back then made it much easier for the super star player to score.
Notice in the video how much SPACE Jordan has. Look at how 1-on-1 it was back then. And when I say 1-on-1, I mean how it was man on man... team defense did not exist in the same way as it does today.
Why does he have so much space to operate? Because back then, the defenders were required to stick on their man and follow them all around the court like a puppy dog. They couldn't hang out in space and "cheat" over to help on dribble penetration or clog up driving lanes. That was against the rules.
If they double teamed, they had to make a b-line to Jordan and aggressively double him.
Notice how easy it is to get dribble penetration, because the other defenders do not peel off their man to help. It's strictly 1-on-1. You blow by your man, you got an open look, whether that's taking it all the way to the rim or a pull-up jumper.
The whole video is a good demonstration of what I'm talking about, but here are two clear, picture-perfect examples of what I'm talking about:
2:04 - this is a called isolation play. Notice how EVERYBODY is on the left side of the court, and Jordan is 1-on-1 with his man on the opposite side. There is no help defender shading over. They cannot slide over, or they'll be called for illegal defense. Look how easily he gets to the rim, and look how there was literally zero help defense.
2:58 - PERFECT example of a double team in the 90's before the rule changes. Look how the defender has to SPRINT at Jordan to double team him. There was no cheating over like today. You had to 100% commit to the double team.
Now you can see how easy it was for a good player to exploit the double team. Jordan saw the guy coming at him, and he used that opportunity to attack.
When big men used to see the double coming, they'd hit the open man.
It was much easier to find the open man back then when there was nobody cheating in the passing lanes like they are allowed to do today.
Also, notice how there is zero help defense at the rim, because since the big men have to defend their man only, the rotation comes too late. Now-a-days, Jordan would have been met with a defender outside of the paint.
Just keep those things in mind while you watch the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Jjl9_ZDY4
I don't think people really understand how the illegal defense rules back then made it much easier for the super star player to score.
Notice in the video how much SPACE Jordan has. Look at how 1-on-1 it was back then. And when I say 1-on-1, I mean how it was man on man... team defense did not exist in the same way as it does today.
Why does he have so much space to operate? Because back then, the defenders were required to stick on their man and follow them all around the court like a puppy dog. They couldn't hang out in space and "cheat" over to help on dribble penetration or clog up driving lanes. That was against the rules.
If they double teamed, they had to make a b-line to Jordan and aggressively double him.
Notice how easy it is to get dribble penetration, because the other defenders do not peel off their man to help. It's strictly 1-on-1. You blow by your man, you got an open look, whether that's taking it all the way to the rim or a pull-up jumper.
The whole video is a good demonstration of what I'm talking about, but here are two clear, picture-perfect examples of what I'm talking about:
2:04 - this is a called isolation play. Notice how EVERYBODY is on the left side of the court, and Jordan is 1-on-1 with his man on the opposite side. There is no help defender shading over. They cannot slide over, or they'll be called for illegal defense. Look how easily he gets to the rim, and look how there was literally zero help defense.
2:58 - PERFECT example of a double team in the 90's before the rule changes. Look how the defender has to SPRINT at Jordan to double team him. There was no cheating over like today. You had to 100% commit to the double team.
Now you can see how easy it was for a good player to exploit the double team. Jordan saw the guy coming at him, and he used that opportunity to attack.
When big men used to see the double coming, they'd hit the open man.
It was much easier to find the open man back then when there was nobody cheating in the passing lanes like they are allowed to do today.
Also, notice how there is zero help defense at the rim, because since the big men have to defend their man only, the rotation comes too late. Now-a-days, Jordan would have been met with a defender outside of the paint.
Just keep those things in mind while you watch the video.
This post was edited on 4/16/15 at 9:49 pm
17
Posted on 4/16/15 at 9:49 pm to PrimeTime Money
And don't forget the lack of Deandre Jordan.
Posted on 4/16/15 at 9:52 pm to PrimeTime Money
Good points.
I usually just chalk it up as guys wanting to beleive things were better back in their day.
I usually just chalk it up as guys wanting to beleive things were better back in their day.
Posted on 4/16/15 at 10:09 pm to PrimeTime Money
Players could actually shoot back then consistently throughout the roster.
If you double teamed Jordan, he would kick it to a number of other players who could shoot really well.
Yes, there are great players today who can shoot. But, when I watch and NBA game, the number of players who are just bad shooters is astounding.
There was strong defense among the better teams back then. These are also Jordan HIGHLIGHTS from one of the best teams of all time. The discussion is about the game OVERALL. No one doubts that Lebron, Westbrook, Durant, Curry, etc are great players or that the Spurs from last year was not an absolutely great team that wouldn't have been great in any era.
The discussion is about overall.
If you double teamed Jordan, he would kick it to a number of other players who could shoot really well.
Yes, there are great players today who can shoot. But, when I watch and NBA game, the number of players who are just bad shooters is astounding.
There was strong defense among the better teams back then. These are also Jordan HIGHLIGHTS from one of the best teams of all time. The discussion is about the game OVERALL. No one doubts that Lebron, Westbrook, Durant, Curry, etc are great players or that the Spurs from last year was not an absolutely great team that wouldn't have been great in any era.
The discussion is about overall.
Posted on 4/16/15 at 10:09 pm to PrimeTime Money
I mean, the #1 thing I notice is that MJ is frickign ridiculous. Good lord i forgot how smooth he looks. What an incredible shooter too. Its just fricking poetic
Idk if this is the best video to prove your point because of how insanely good he is.
Idk if this is the best video to prove your point because of how insanely good he is.
This post was edited on 4/16/15 at 10:10 pm
Posted on 4/16/15 at 10:17 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
NBA superstars didn't have it easier in the '90's
Posted on 4/16/15 at 10:24 pm to PrimeTime Money
NBA was harder in the 90's
Posted on 4/16/15 at 10:38 pm to PrimeTime Money
showing the greatest player of all time, using that as the basis for argument
notice how LeBron isn't getting touched and how easily he gets to the lane
notice how LeBron isn't getting touched and how easily he gets to the lane
Posted on 4/16/15 at 10:49 pm to PrimeTime Money
So you make an assessment of 90's play using a highlight video of best player ever. Clever.
Posted on 4/16/15 at 11:51 pm to PrimeTime Money
I haven't read the OP yet or watched the video(I will in a sec) but I made a long post about this exact thing the other day.
I watched an old Bulls game against the Knicks. In the first quarter, the Bulls had a run where 6 or 7 out of 10 possessions or so, went to Jordan. Now, this IS NOT an attempt to diminish his game. And people can roll their eyes at this all they want, but it's exactly what happened....
Each time he touched the ball in this section of the game, Jordan ran up the right side of the court as the ball handler brought it up the floor. Each time Jordan sorta posted up near the block. The 3 other Bulls players parked it on the left side of the court, behind the 3 point line, and the ball was dumped to Jordan. I'm not exactly a rules expert over here, but it was obvious that man to man rules were nuts, because the Knicks players were all beyond the free throw line, save for the little dude guarding MJ.
With the ball in his hand, he's face up his defender, pump fake, jab step, turn his back, jab step, and pretty much just fell out the situation and create space. The man guarding him was the only player between him and the basket.
2 of the 6 or 7 possessions he put the ball on the floor but for some reason, illegal defense was called. I assume because a Knick defender came to double him too early...? The other times he shot little 12 footers over the man guarding him like there was nobody there....which he was a master at.
What really blew my mind was thinking about what the Spurs to do Lebron(which is amazing). There a plenty videos and pictures to show how difficult it is for guys to get to the basket when the Spurs don't want them to. If/when Lebron beats his man, 2 or 3 Spurs players immediately sink to the basket. It's a feat in and of itself just to get a path to the rim. It's just not realistic to dribble through that many guys for a clean look.
I don't know if it was always like this for Jordan, but in the game I watched, he didn't have to deal with ANYTHING like that. Hell, it was downright ridiculous how he could maneuver around the court.
What I took away from it was defenses now would be MUCH more difficult for guys back in the day to score on. Kobe's game would have been PERFECT against what I saw. He reminds me so much of Jordan now that I've seen full Bulls games. Lebron's size and speed would have demolished the man to man he would have seen. Not saying he would have averaged 40 or anything, but damn.
Sorry for this insanely long post, but I'm so interested in this discussion.
ETA: A more level headed and knowledgeable fan...looking at you, RTR and Spur, will correct this if need be....but I honestly believe that if Lebron played under the same system that Michael Jordan did, he'd be considered the better player by the majority of basketball fans.
I watched an old Bulls game against the Knicks. In the first quarter, the Bulls had a run where 6 or 7 out of 10 possessions or so, went to Jordan. Now, this IS NOT an attempt to diminish his game. And people can roll their eyes at this all they want, but it's exactly what happened....
Each time he touched the ball in this section of the game, Jordan ran up the right side of the court as the ball handler brought it up the floor. Each time Jordan sorta posted up near the block. The 3 other Bulls players parked it on the left side of the court, behind the 3 point line, and the ball was dumped to Jordan. I'm not exactly a rules expert over here, but it was obvious that man to man rules were nuts, because the Knicks players were all beyond the free throw line, save for the little dude guarding MJ.
With the ball in his hand, he's face up his defender, pump fake, jab step, turn his back, jab step, and pretty much just fell out the situation and create space. The man guarding him was the only player between him and the basket.
2 of the 6 or 7 possessions he put the ball on the floor but for some reason, illegal defense was called. I assume because a Knick defender came to double him too early...? The other times he shot little 12 footers over the man guarding him like there was nobody there....which he was a master at.
What really blew my mind was thinking about what the Spurs to do Lebron(which is amazing). There a plenty videos and pictures to show how difficult it is for guys to get to the basket when the Spurs don't want them to. If/when Lebron beats his man, 2 or 3 Spurs players immediately sink to the basket. It's a feat in and of itself just to get a path to the rim. It's just not realistic to dribble through that many guys for a clean look.
I don't know if it was always like this for Jordan, but in the game I watched, he didn't have to deal with ANYTHING like that. Hell, it was downright ridiculous how he could maneuver around the court.
What I took away from it was defenses now would be MUCH more difficult for guys back in the day to score on. Kobe's game would have been PERFECT against what I saw. He reminds me so much of Jordan now that I've seen full Bulls games. Lebron's size and speed would have demolished the man to man he would have seen. Not saying he would have averaged 40 or anything, but damn.
Sorry for this insanely long post, but I'm so interested in this discussion.
ETA: A more level headed and knowledgeable fan...looking at you, RTR and Spur, will correct this if need be....but I honestly believe that if Lebron played under the same system that Michael Jordan did, he'd be considered the better player by the majority of basketball fans.
This post was edited on 4/16/15 at 11:57 pm
Posted on 4/17/15 at 12:17 am to PrimeTime Money
EASIER??? 
Every shot he took was amazing and 95% were heavily contested. That was SICK, the best player ever in the Playoffs in his absolute prime.
Every shot he took was amazing and 95% were heavily contested. That was SICK, the best player ever in the Playoffs in his absolute prime.Posted on 4/17/15 at 12:39 am to PrimeTime Money
This might be a better video to showcase your points
There's no way this video hasn't been posted here. It's a great video.
There's no way this video hasn't been posted here. It's a great video.
This post was edited on 4/17/15 at 1:02 am
Posted on 4/17/15 at 10:42 am to PrimeTime Money
Water is wet OP
But subhuman uncle Rico's will never admit the truth
Delusionists.
But subhuman uncle Rico's will never admit the truth
Delusionists.
Posted on 4/17/15 at 11:58 am to PrimeTime Money
I see:
- A bunch of guys who had no shot in hell at guarding Jordan 1 on 1.
- The same defensive sets you see today with vastly inferior bigs in terms of athleticism.
- A ton of hand checking and body contact that would be a foul 100% of the time today but didn't get called.
There's a ton of examples that actually disprove what you are trying to say as well. It looks very similar to be honest, except the PFs and Cs in today's NBA are on a different plane when it comes to speed.
Watch 8:30 - 9:00. The heat players are playing 10 ft off their man hovering right outside the paint.
ETA: There are bigs in Jordan's face for half of the video. It's just Michael effing Jordan.
- A bunch of guys who had no shot in hell at guarding Jordan 1 on 1.
- The same defensive sets you see today with vastly inferior bigs in terms of athleticism.
- A ton of hand checking and body contact that would be a foul 100% of the time today but didn't get called.
There's a ton of examples that actually disprove what you are trying to say as well. It looks very similar to be honest, except the PFs and Cs in today's NBA are on a different plane when it comes to speed.
Watch 8:30 - 9:00. The heat players are playing 10 ft off their man hovering right outside the paint.
ETA: There are bigs in Jordan's face for half of the video. It's just Michael effing Jordan.
This post was edited on 4/17/15 at 12:08 pm
Posted on 4/17/15 at 4:34 pm to PrimeTime Money
Okay I watched the first few minutes of the video. I understand the point you're trying to make but you highlight two specific plays (2:04 and 2:58). That's fine. But the rest of those plays are either Jordan beating his man one on one and then blowing by one or two more defenders, or him just making incredible shots against otherwise solid defense.
I'm not sure this video is a good example at all of your spacing argument, for several reasons. Firstly, Jordan was just so good that it didn't really matter what defense was played against him. There are a LOT of clips even in the first few minutes of that where there are one, two, even three defenders against him. And he still scores. shite, there is one drive where he dunks it after flying by two people with almost no space in the lane and at the rim, and several where he finishes in the lane after beating more than half of the defense. Another thing is that you act like there simply weren't double teams back then, and how Jordan would've been met at the lane in today's game and all that. My argument is that none of that matters much against a player like Jordan. He's gonna get his and go off anyway. Like Dan Patrick always said, you can't stop him, you can only hope to contain him.
So while you may have a good argument, this particular video (and possibly the fact that you chose Jordan) doesn't really back up your claims all too well.
And I'm not overly biased toward older ball either...players like Kobe or Lebron would've gone off back then just like they do today. IMO truly "great" players can eclipse defenses in any eras. Jordan scoring 50 today is a bit ridiculous obviously, but I think he'd do really well today. His assists and FTs would go way up, and he'd still get his scores because he's that fricking good.
Just my $0.02.
I'm not sure this video is a good example at all of your spacing argument, for several reasons. Firstly, Jordan was just so good that it didn't really matter what defense was played against him. There are a LOT of clips even in the first few minutes of that where there are one, two, even three defenders against him. And he still scores. shite, there is one drive where he dunks it after flying by two people with almost no space in the lane and at the rim, and several where he finishes in the lane after beating more than half of the defense. Another thing is that you act like there simply weren't double teams back then, and how Jordan would've been met at the lane in today's game and all that. My argument is that none of that matters much against a player like Jordan. He's gonna get his and go off anyway. Like Dan Patrick always said, you can't stop him, you can only hope to contain him.
So while you may have a good argument, this particular video (and possibly the fact that you chose Jordan) doesn't really back up your claims all too well.
And I'm not overly biased toward older ball either...players like Kobe or Lebron would've gone off back then just like they do today. IMO truly "great" players can eclipse defenses in any eras. Jordan scoring 50 today is a bit ridiculous obviously, but I think he'd do really well today. His assists and FTs would go way up, and he'd still get his scores because he's that fricking good.
Just my $0.02.
This post was edited on 4/17/15 at 4:58 pm
Posted on 4/17/15 at 8:37 pm to PrimeTime Money
The space was given to Jordan in case he started to drive to the paint
Posted on 4/17/15 at 11:36 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
2:04 - this is a called isolation play.
Jordan got a mismatch and was being covered by Juwan Howard...the same thing happens in 2015, they clear the floor and let them go to work. You couldn't have picked a worse example to prove your point...besides Howard, all four of the Bullets defenders were in the paint and three were covering no one (two Bulls were outside the 3pt line and another was on their way).
quote:
2:58 - PERFECT example of a double team in the 90's before the rule changes
A "double team in the 90s" didn't necessarily include two players basically running into one another.
quote:
lso, notice how there is zero help defense at the rim,
Webber is arguably being held by Rodman and boxed out by Longley as Jordan was driving, otherwise...
quote:
Jordan would have been met with a defender outside of the paint
Hell, I'm not even on the "90s were better" train...but, you are exaggerating the lack of help defense in that era and the two clips you emphasize are poor examples to begin with.
Posted on 4/18/15 at 10:40 am to PrimeTime Money
I see a bunch of times in that video where Michael drives and the defensive center comes up to stop him from driving and Michael pulls up and makes a jump shot. That's just fricking impressive
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