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re: Philosophy: Do you believe in a deterministic or indeterministic universe?

Posted on 2/24/15 at 3:57 pm to
Posted by rbWarEagle
Member since Nov 2009
49999 posts
Posted on 2/24/15 at 3:57 pm to
quote:

The universe for the most part is deterministic, so the laws in place have lead to this world to exist. But those who have higher intellects aren't bound by a certain end.

It has nothing to do with intellect. It has everything to do with genetics, environment, upbringing, and countless other influential variables that shape our conscious experience.

quote:

The earth has a determined end, but a single entity aka a human doesn't have a determined end. It is possible for higher beings, such as humans to have a indeterminate end and lower beings or objects, such as inanimate objects to have fixed ends.


That is called indeterminism. I don't happen to believe that, but your religious beliefs lead you to believe that (I assume).
Posted by catholictigerfan
Member since Oct 2009
56321 posts
Posted on 2/24/15 at 4:58 pm to
quote:

It has nothing to do with intellect. It has everything to do with genetics, environment, upbringing, and countless other influential variables that shape our conscious experience.



intellect is a part of our decisions making. Yes genetics, environment, upbringing have an impact, but our intellect can help us reason what actions are the best.

But them simple point I was trying to make, some things work involuntarily, inanimate objects and most animals, and there are some things that have at-least some form of voluntary actions.

Again the train analogy. A train is moving towards an end, that end is predetermined but those in the train are free to choose what to do, while their destination is set.

There are some things that are determined for us, where we are born, what our upbringing, gender, hair color, etc. but there are other things that are not determined, what food we eat, when we wake up, who we date, etc. While many of the decisions we make come up out of natural instincts we aren't bound by those things. That is why people fast, or why people will deprive themselves of sleep, or other natural remedies. Their intellect believes it is beneficial for them to give that hitting up.

but you will find most Christian theologians, and philosophers, argue for free will from the intellect or from reason. Animals who by argument don't have intellects, (some may have intellects it's not impossible) don't have a choice in their acting. Those who do have intellects do have choices in their acting, but only when free from certain constraints. Someone who is being treated with their life doesn't really have a choice, unless they aren't afraid of death. But I have a choice to do many things in life. Free will is obviously present in the human experience.

quote:

That is called indeterminism.


I rather use teleology that is what the likes of Aristotle, Plato, Aquinas, and others have used. Pretty much things have purposes and those purposes determine who things should act. For example the final cause of my eye is to help me see.

Now don't get this confused with the ID theory, I don't subscribe to that, mainly because they also reject evolution. while there is an intelligence behind the universe, which would make it deterministic, evolution and the like are true.

But why I'm a determinist, and why I agrgue for free will, is mainly based on teleology or final causality. Everything is created for a purpose, and the way it acts is determined by that purpose. Because humans have an intellect, reason, and will, humans can act contrary to that end. While this seems to set up a contradiction it doesn't. Things can work against their purpose, a chair can be used as a door stop.

To put it simply intellect and reason are essential in describing free will. The only way we can work against instincts if we have reason to show us why those instincts are good or not good for us.

Man doesn't have an instinct to fast, but plenty of people do it.
Man doesn't have an instinct to not produce offspring, but many people in religious orders and peisthood choose not to do it. Again yes religion plays an impact in that, but religion doesn't predetermine you to do this. Your reason guides you to this.

If are actions are predetermined I wouldn't think we would work against our natural instincts.
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