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Started By
Message
re: Pro Russian Rebels just shot down 2 Ukrainian fighter jets
Posted on 7/23/14 at 9:12 am to a want
Posted on 7/23/14 at 9:12 am to a want
It all depends on the amount of sam sites, location altitude. There are man portable infrared sams that planes cannot detect except for missle plume detectors. The only real defense against these are flares or flying above their short range.
Then there are radar sam sites which have a very long range and altitude.Almost all fighters and bombers can detect these radar signatures and most can take active countermeasures against them.The more sam sites the more the percentages go up for a successful hit.
Then there are radar sam sites which have a very long range and altitude.Almost all fighters and bombers can detect these radar signatures and most can take active countermeasures against them.The more sam sites the more the percentages go up for a successful hit.
0
Posted on 7/23/14 at 9:16 am to constant cough
quote:
I doubt seriously he cares what you or Obama think.
Theres a lot of "Putin gives zero fricks" comments in this thread.
I would assert that is not at all accurate:
quote:
In a security meeting today, Putin said Russia would try to rein in Ukraine's rebels. He also effectively told media and politicians that the country is not under Western siege – and to stop repeating that claim.
quote:
Mr. Putin's statement flatly contradicts what the domestic media have been saying for months. Just days ago, Russian outlets were warning of a White House "offensive against Russia and China," with the US trying to create "instability on Russia's borders." Putin himself earlier this month claimed that Russia's annexation of Crimea was to forestall NATO from getting a foothold in Ukraine.
quote:
Among other things, Putin stressed that Russia is a reliable business partner, one that wishes to be part of the global community and will "never turn to isolationism."
quote:
"Most of Putin's speech was directed at an internal audience, and leaving aside his worries about 'colored revolutions' it was mostly an appeal to reason," he says.
Looks to me like this is Putin's "Oh shite" moment - so id say he gives at least a few fricks about what the rest of the world thinks.
LINK
This post was edited on 7/23/14 at 9:18 am
Posted on 7/23/14 at 9:17 am to StraightCashHomey21
Jets have armaments that can travel at different altitudes than the jet itself.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 9:21 am to BobBoucher
quote:
Looks to me like this is Putin's "Oh shite" moment - so id say he gives at least a few fricks about what the rest of the world thinks.
Well shooting down a commercial airline is bad PR. I was referring to Putin's photo ops with animals and what not that a want posted.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 9:38 am to WG_Tiger23
quote:
While I know that our military has the most advanced fighters and best trained air men, would our planes be going down this easy from SAMs? I just wonder if we were fighting a country like China or Russia, would there be significant losses in aircraft?
Yes. If we just flew non-stealth aircraft into airspace with SAM systems in place. We wouldn't just do that, however. Even one of our F-117's was shot down during the Balkans air campaign. These are extremely capable systems.
There are methods at targeting and eliminating radar installations, command and control, etc to greatly reduce the effectiveness of these platforms. But they are highly effective and mobile systems are difficult to locate and target until they engage targets.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 9:42 am to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
per the bbc but but we don't have those capabilities
They can shoot down fighter jets and still not have the capability to target an airliner cruising at 33,000 feet. What altitude were the fighters at when engaged?
Also, you mentioned something about these fighters not being able to reach the airliner. If you think SU-25's can't target high flying aircraft then you really have no idea what you are talking about.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 9:42 am to StraightCashHomey21
Maybe update your OP to disclose the pilots ejected safely 
Posted on 7/23/14 at 10:00 am to ChewyDante
quote:
Also, you mentioned something about these fighters not being able to reach the airliner. If you think SU-25's can't target high flying aircraft then you really have no idea what you are talking about.
you mean Russia has no idea what they are talking about I never said it couldn't shoot down an airliner.
quote:
We would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.
“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”
The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.
Russia claimed it was right there with MH17 then shot it down not from a distance.
They even gave us fancy pictures
This post was edited on 7/23/14 at 10:10 am
Posted on 7/23/14 at 10:09 am to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
Russia claimed it was right there with MH17 then shot it down not from a distance.
Russia is claiming a fighter was present prior or during the airliner shoot down. I have no idea if that's true or not. But it is not a contradiction in any way to say that an SU-25 can take down an aircraft at that altitude and also assert that the SAM's in possession of the rebels can't, while still shooting down SU-25's with those systems. The contradiction would only come if the shot down fighters were hit at an altitude exceeding the range the Russians claim the separatist platforms have.
So again, the question is what altitude were the downed fighters at when engaged?
Posted on 7/23/14 at 10:12 am to ChewyDante
quote:
If we just flew non-stealth aircraft into airspace with SAM systems in place
Guess I just assumed that the Su-25 or whatever were stealthy. Perhaps not. Time to do some jet research.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 10:13 am to ChewyDante
quote:
Russia is claiming a fighter was present prior or during the airliner shoot down. I have no idea if that's true or not. But it is not a contradiction in any way to say that an SU-25 can take down an aircraft at that altitude and also assert that the SAM's in possession of the rebels can't, while still shooting down SU-25's with those systems. The contradiction would only come if the shot down fighters were hit at an altitude exceeding the range the Russians claim the separatist platforms have.
The rebels have the capability to clearly do both. They have been for weeks claiming they have no capability to shoot down anything other than helo's or low flying aircraft with shoulder fire sams.
quote:
So again, the question is what altitude were the downed fighters at when engaged?
we will soon find out
This post was edited on 7/23/14 at 10:22 am
Posted on 7/23/14 at 10:14 am to WG_Tiger23
quote:
Guess I just assumed that the Su-25 or whatever were stealthy. Perhaps not. Time to do some jet research.
nah they are pretty shitty
Posted on 7/23/14 at 10:22 am to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
They have been for weeks claiming they have no capability to shoot down anything other than helo's with sholder fire sams.
Where have you read this? I've never seen this claim. And ignoring the civilian aircraft there have 5 or so planes shot down.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 10:28 am to C
quote:
Where have you read this? I've never seen this claim. And ignoring the civilian aircraft there have 5 or so planes shot down.
quote:
The Donetsk People’s Republic claims its self-defense forces simply don’t have such military equipment.
Donetsk People's Republic PM Aleksandr Boroday has called the incident a “provocation by the Ukrainian military”.
“We confirm that the plane crashed not far from Donetsk,” Boroday said. “Representatives of Donetsk People's Republic have headed to the scene of the plane search.”
“Self-defense forces have no air-defense, which could target transport aircraft at that height,” he told Interfax.
“We have only MANPADs (portable anti-aircraft missile complex) which hit targets at 3-4 kilometers,” Sergey Kavtaradze, representative for Donetsk People’s Republic PM, also told journalists.
From their own press release.
I edited my post but basically saying they cant hit anything higher than 12,000 feet even though they have hit stuff flying higher. They shot down a II-76 which can fly much higher than that.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 10:33 am to StraightCashHomey21
Isn't the SU-25 basically Russia's shitty version of the A-10? I'd imagine it was flying pretty low.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 10:37 am to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
I edited my post but basically saying they cant hit anything higher than 12,000 feet even though they have hit stuff flying higher. They shot down a II-76 which can fly much higher than that.
You're only saying that it CAN fly higher. The question is how high was it when it was shot down?
The Russians may well be full if shite, but this simply isn't a gotcha unless you can prove altitudes of aircraft when engaged.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 10:38 am to ChewyDante
quote:
You're only saying that it CAN fly higher. The question is how high was it when it was shot down?
Hard to imagine a military transport flying low in a hot zone unless its about to land or a combat jump is about to happen.
quote:
The Russians may well be full if shite, but this simply isn't a gotcha unless you can prove altitudes of aircraft when engaged.
Well time for some digging if its been released.
This post was edited on 7/23/14 at 10:41 am
Posted on 7/23/14 at 11:12 am to StraightCashHomey21
LINK
quote:
An air defense system shot down the jets after the pilots completed a task in Dmytrivka, a village in Ukraine's Donetsk region near the border with Russia, the military press office said.
Sergei Kavtaradze, an aide to rebel leader Alexander Borodai, the Prime Minister of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic, told CNN that the two jets had been shot down by rebel fighters using a shoulder-fired missile system.
But Col. Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council, said preliminary information suggested the missiles might have been launched from inside Russia.
The planes were flying at an altitude of 5,200 meters (17,000 feet) when they were hit, he said.
This post was edited on 7/23/14 at 11:13 am
Posted on 7/23/14 at 11:14 am to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
aid preliminary information suggested the missiles might have been launched from inside Russia.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 11:15 am to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
Hard to imagine a military transport flying low in a hot zone unless its about to land or a combat jump is about to happen.
Are the Ukrainians even claiming that any of their aircraft were shot down at altitudes exceeding what the separatists say their capabilities are? I haven't heard it if so. They would be plastering that all over the news to counter the separatist claims if that was the case.
The separatists could have possessed a Buk system which they used on the airliner and still have used their other platforms to shoot down the Ukrainian aircraft. There needn't be a connection between the two.
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