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Posted on 1/9/14 at 9:44 pm to LSUANDY25
We signed more than 25 before the 25 rule. Which means nothing. The number is 85. No way around the 85, but countless loopholes to get above 25.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 9:54 pm to LSUANDY25
Ha well I appreciate that andy. Not everyone agrees with the things I say, and i understand that as i dont always agree with other posters. I just try to stay unbiased and realistic / level headed on here.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 10:46 pm to KG5989
KG
Whats your thoughts on the OL coach "search"?
Whats your thoughts on the OL coach "search"?
Posted on 1/9/14 at 11:21 pm to Kingpenm3
As I understand it, SEC teams can back count EE's one year if they signed less than 25 in the prior years class. In 2012 and 2013 Rivals shows that Tennessee had 22 each year. If they had at least 3 EE's in 2013 they would have counted them as 2012. Then they could count 6 EE's of the 33 this year as 2013. That gets them to 31. I don't know how far back this 25 limit goes. Rivals numbers could be wrong. They most likely figure a couple want work out and or have the grades.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 12:18 am to LSUFANFRANKLINTON
quote:
LSUFANFRANKLINTON
I know you?
Posted on 1/10/14 at 8:05 am to Kingpenm3
The main thing the SEC rule changes from the NCAA rule is that anyone who signs takes up a spot in the class regardless of whether they qualify. The SEC rule has solved the problem they were looking to solve which was the over-signing of athletes that might or might not qualify. With this process a team would sign 30 athletes for 26 spots thinking that they would probably have 4 casualties among the athletes that were qualification risks. So these grade risks weren't really guaranteed a scholarship.
Now, if you sign a player they take up a spot in the class no matter what. Schools can't take risks on players who most likely won't qualify unless they're happy losing a spot in their class. It's better for the student athlete and the SEC rule definitely works.
Now, if you sign a player they take up a spot in the class no matter what. Schools can't take risks on players who most likely won't qualify unless they're happy losing a spot in their class. It's better for the student athlete and the SEC rule definitely works.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 8:12 am to TheRookbird
Does it matter?!? we couldnt get 33 signees anyway this year 
Posted on 1/10/14 at 8:13 am to TheRookbird
quote:is that the main change with the term "initial counter"? basically they added some categories that fall under that term (such as an academic casualty)?
The main thing the SEC rule changes from the NCAA rule is that anyone who signs takes up a spot in the class regardless of whether they qualify. The SEC rule has solved the problem they were looking to solve which was the over-signing of athletes that might or might not qualify. With this process a team would sign 30 athletes for 26 spots thinking that they would probably have 4 casualties among the athletes that were qualification risks. So these grade risks weren't really guaranteed a scholarship.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 8:35 am to I20goon
Initial counters and signings are two different, but similar things. An initial counter is an athlete who receives financial aid for the first time during the first two years. A signing is signing a national letter of intent or an offer of financial aid. The SEC may, or may not be treating these as equivalent though.
Initial counters are limited to a max of 25/yr. You can backcount to catch up on your allocation if you signed less than 25 the previous year if you can process enough EEs. Only EEs can be backcounted.
In the NCAA, signings are limited to 25 within the period of signing day to, I think, Dec 1. EEs are excluded in this limit. They are pretty clear on this point.
In the SEC, if you take the rule as written, it seems that this would be true too. However, in practice over the past couple of years, I'm not aware of any team that has taken advantage of this. Schools seem to treat signings and initial counter as equivalent...meaning that a signing, even if he fails to qualify and doesn't actually receive financial aid counts like he did.
The NCAA actually copied the SEC rule verbatim. In the current manual, they clarified the EE thing. Maybe the SEC has followed suit, but it would really be acting against the purpose that it was implemented for (i.e. limit the signing of unqualified athletes). Bottom line, it's not clear exactly what the policy is.
Initial counters are limited to a max of 25/yr. You can backcount to catch up on your allocation if you signed less than 25 the previous year if you can process enough EEs. Only EEs can be backcounted.
In the NCAA, signings are limited to 25 within the period of signing day to, I think, Dec 1. EEs are excluded in this limit. They are pretty clear on this point.
In the SEC, if you take the rule as written, it seems that this would be true too. However, in practice over the past couple of years, I'm not aware of any team that has taken advantage of this. Schools seem to treat signings and initial counter as equivalent...meaning that a signing, even if he fails to qualify and doesn't actually receive financial aid counts like he did.
The NCAA actually copied the SEC rule verbatim. In the current manual, they clarified the EE thing. Maybe the SEC has followed suit, but it would really be acting against the purpose that it was implemented for (i.e. limit the signing of unqualified athletes). Bottom line, it's not clear exactly what the policy is.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 8:58 am to Indiana Tiger
The SEC is treating a signee as an initial counter towards their recruiting class. If they don't get in, they don't count against the 85, but they do count against the 25 for that class no matter what.
I don't believe the NCAA has copied this aspect of the rules from the SEC, unless it's something new for this year. Regardless, the SEC has been far more proactive on this than any other conference.
I don't believe the NCAA has copied this aspect of the rules from the SEC, unless it's something new for this year. Regardless, the SEC has been far more proactive on this than any other conference.
This post was edited on 1/10/14 at 9:00 am
Posted on 1/10/14 at 8:58 am to Cadello
quote:
They need all the help they can get....
Posted on 1/10/14 at 9:10 am to TheRookbird
quote:
The SEC is treating a signee as an initial counter towards their recruiting class. If they don't get in, they don't count against the 85, but they do count against the 25 for that class no matter what.
I don't believe the NCAA has copied this aspect of the rules from the SEC, unless it's something new for this year. Regardless, the SEC has been far more proactive on this than any other conference.
Do you know for a fact that this is the way the SEC is working? It's the position that I've taken since it's been implemented, but I could only base it on circumstantial evidence and not something certain.
The NCAA originally followed suit and copied the SEC rule verbatim, but as I said earlier, the SEC rule as written does not say what is apparently being done. This year the NCAA manual has a clause that clarifies EEs.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 10:10 am to LSUnation78
quote:
You are correct Andy, but Tenn is in the SEC which recently enacted a rule limiting SEC schools to 25 signees.
I thought the SEC rule was that you can't oversign (ie have a class that puts you over 85), not that it states 25 in a given year specifically. If Tenn only has 50 returning scholarships as of signing day, can't they sign 35?
Posted on 1/10/14 at 10:11 am to Indiana Tiger
quote:
Do you know for a fact that this is the way the SEC is working? It's the position that I've taken since it's been implemented, but I could only base it on circumstantial evidence and not something certain.
It doesn't appear to be clearly written in the rule, but, from an empirical standpoint, it's definitely the way schools and conference are interpreting the rule.
quote:
“If a player signs, he counts without regard to whether or not he actually enrolls,” SEC spokesman Charles Bloom said in an e-mail Monday. “ ‘Back counting’ is only permitted for mid-year enrollees who are able to be included as an initial counter for the academic year in which they enroll. ‘Back counting’ is an artificial term for this discussion and not accurate as the question is about the signing limit.”
[link=( https://www.macon.com/2012/01/30/1885259/sec-clarifies-rule-on-back-counting.html#storylink=cpy)]LINK[/link]
What will be interesting, however, is with the new early signing of financial aid agreements that occur before the Dec. 1 to May 31 signing period. Obviously using those as "freebees" goes completely against the spirit of the rule, but potentially not the letter of the rule. I would imagine that loop hole would be closed swiftly if Tennessee or any other school tried to capitalize on it.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 10:13 am to Tiger in NY
quote:
I thought the SEC rule was that you can't oversign (ie have a class that puts you over 85), not that it states 25 in a given year specifically.
It's specifically written as 25 initial counters per signing period.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 10:36 am to TheRookbird
quote:
It doesn't appear to be clearly written in the rule, but, from an empirical standpoint, it's definitely the way schools and conference are interpreting the rule.
I'll say so. Here's the exception to the rule from the SEC constitution:
quote:
13.9.1.1 Signing Limit Exception. A prospective student-athlete who signs a National Letter of Intent, Conference financial aid agreement and/or institutional offer of athletics financial aid and is included in the certifying institution’s initial counter limits for the current academic year is not subject to the institution’s annual signing limit. [Adopted 6/3/11; effective August 1, 2011]
This basically says an EE that counts back isn't included in the numbers. But I agree with you that in practice, it appears they are counting them. If they can do that, I don't see how signing them in the early period matters.
I'm familiar with the Bloom quote. The problem is that the reporter wasn't knowledgeable enough to ask needed clarifying questions, like but your written rule says...
Posted on 1/10/14 at 10:55 am to Indiana Tiger
Speaking towards the new NCAA early financial aid agreement signings:
Since this is the rule and you're signing your financial aid agreement before Dec. 1, what does that mean for you? I think there's definitely multiple ways to interpret that with one being that you don't count against the 25.
It really all goes back to how the letter of the rule doesn't define multiple things necessary to interpret the rule completely. I think they're acting in the spirit of the rule, but that might get tested with the early signees for this Tennessee class.
quote:
13.9.1 Letter of Intent - Limitation. Each SEC member institution is limited to signing 25 football prospective student- athletes to a National Letter of Intent, Conference financial aid agreement and/or institutional offer of athletics financial aid from December 1 through May 31st of each year. [Adopted 5/29/09; effective immediately; revised 6/3/11; effective August 1, 2011]
Since this is the rule and you're signing your financial aid agreement before Dec. 1, what does that mean for you? I think there's definitely multiple ways to interpret that with one being that you don't count against the 25.
It really all goes back to how the letter of the rule doesn't define multiple things necessary to interpret the rule completely. I think they're acting in the spirit of the rule, but that might get tested with the early signees for this Tennessee class.
This post was edited on 1/10/14 at 10:58 am
Posted on 1/10/14 at 1:09 pm to TheRookbird
quote:
Since this is the rule and you're signing your financial aid agreement before Dec. 1, what does that mean for you? I think there's definitely multiple ways to interpret that with one being that you don't count against the 25.
I can read the rule just like I can read the exception which looks like they are not following. So my point is that they are a group of schools that can decide to implement the rule any way they choose as long as it does't conflict with the NCAA. Whether there is a written loop hole doesn't matter if they collectively choose not to use it. Considering what the intent behind the rule was, they should ignore it. But they could change their minds.
Personally, I think someone wrote a piss poor rule; they don't want to jump thru all the hoops to correct it; and they are honoring the intent...so far.
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