re: The Sex Pistols played Baton Rouge in 1978

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they didn't have the same DIY machinery as the Americans had to fall back on.

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But there was no DIY machinery here either at the team. People just went out and built it. And the lack of any DIY ethic in Britian is a huge drawback for me. It's just such a passive musical movement (Britsh post-punk OTOH, did seize the controls themselves and "ripped it up and started again" -- I tend to prefer British post-punk and the DIY aesthetic translates to the music).

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Mclaren wanted them to be stars so they could crate havok and controversy. That was his bag. I don't' think they themselves thought that much into it (other than Lydon I don't think they had the emotional depth to do so).

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Yeah, which is just so boring to me. Shock and awe is fine, but there has to be some ideas behind it. they were all agit, no prop. And I agree the Pistols lacked emotional depth.

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One man's turd is another man's gem, and our opinions regarding these two acts are directly opposed.

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Pretty much. It's why I think the Pistols influence is not very positive. It's all about just being shocking. Bodies, God Save the Queen, Belsen was a Gas... I mean, it's a blueprint for bands like Marilyn Manson. It's trying so aggressively hard to be offensive. But there's no there there, other than just trying to offend.

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I don't think I dislike BF as much as you do the Pistols, I do not think basic production values and song writing abilities are something to dismiss. That's the main problem I have with a lot of American punk from the early to mid-80s. I was there, and in all the years since not much of it appeals to me any more than it did then.

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I do think Spot's production on SST records is a travesty. It's a shame so many classic records have such terrible production. Dischord had much better production without having the slicked up sound of the Pistols. But I do think Flag could write some great songs. Damaged, Gimme Gimme Gimme, TV Party, Six Pack, Police Story... those are defining classics of the genre. And I do think they had some talented players over the years (Dez and Chuck, particularly -- I'm also a huge fan of Bill Stevenson as a drummer, but he was a late addition on some of their weaker albums, his great work is with the Descendents and All).

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Attitude only carries you so far. And it's not just American acts that I find that have that problem. Other than a couple songs I find the Clash to be impossible to listen to too. Just absolutely atrocious. I appreciate what they're trying to say, they just suck at saying it in a tuneful manner.

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I absolutely agree that attitude only carries you so far, and that's my knock on the Pistols. They are nothing by attitude. The Clash, by contrast, when they failed it was due to being too ambitious. I love that their "sell out" record includes a rap on Atom Tam and poetry readings on Ghetto Defendant. Sandinista famously has its problems, but its not because it's attitude only. If anything, it's just too ambitious (I love Sandinista, BTW)

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In general I just do not get the hate the Pistols get from so many American punk fans. A lot of it seems to be based on turf wars and silly beefs and not the simple facts of the matter.

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Because A) they weren't very good B) they were a corporate rip off of a musical movement C) they had a toxic influence due to their incredibly success. I think they are guilty of the attitude only charge more than American hardcore, which quickly grew out of three chords and a cloud of dust. Minor Threat begat Rites of Spring begat Fugazi in the span of a little over five years. Minor Threat broke up in 1983, and Fugazi's debut EP came out in 1988. That's a pretty fast evolution.

I think you're selling American hardcore way short, but that's cool. It did devolve into turf wars and arguments over the rulebook, when there really shouldn't be a rulebook. That's the whole point. Don't like the paradigm... well, make your own.